Who Gets To Live Longer, And Who Decides?

Death is the ultimate unsolved problem—and some of the world’s most powerful technologists are convinced they can patch it. We sit down with author and technologist Alex to pull apart the boldest claims in the quest for immortality and refocus on what truly extends healthspan for real people. This conversation moves from server-farm consciousness and cryonics to the everyday levers—sleep, movement, nutrition, community, and stress—that quietly add years to life and life to years.

We map the modern “immortalist” landscape in plain terms: transhumanists chasing uploads, biohackers pursuing longevity escape velocity, public-spirited geroscientists seeking scalable therapies, and power players trying to rewrite the rules from special jurisdictions. Along the way, we examine the equity gap baked into personalized medicine, why many wellness tools ignore women’s physiology, and how AI can be both philosopher’s stone and mirage. If health data is a compass, not a commander, how do we avoid becoming servants to our scores and stay present to how we actually feel?

Alex shares how personal loss sharpened her reporting and why acceptance of mortality can make life richer, not smaller. We explore the psychology of belief, the politics of access, and the ethics of speed when labs outpace regulation. The takeaway is both hopeful and grounded: push for breakthroughs, protect the basics, and design longevity that scales—generic, affordable, and available far beyond elite clinics. If we get this right, the rising tide won’t just lift yachts; it will float every boat.

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Transcript

Setting The Longevity Debate

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There are definitely a growing group of people who believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that technology is the thing that is going to get us to an immortal future. This idea that we can and indeed we should enhance our bodies with technology in order that we can ultimately, if we so choose, live as a consciousness on the server farm on Jupiter. It was like in September 2024, you said on Spanner, you were like, the number one thing that you have to do is you need to get personalized medicine. That's the number one thing that you really should do if you want to live a longer life is personalized medicine. That's not something that is possible for most people, nor is that something that is relevant to a huge group of people because they're not part of the data sets that go into personalized medicine treatments and knowledge.

Guest Intro And Book Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:50

This is the Longevity Loop Podcast, and I'm your host, Brent Wallace. In every episode, I bring you the leading voices in longevity, plus my own insights, to put the world's best strategies directly into your hands, making elite longevity strategies accessible to everyone, regardless of your background. So let's jump into the loop starting right now. All right, so welcome to Longevity Loop Podcast, everyone. Uh, we've got a very special guest today. And what we're dealing with as the theme of longevity and the longevity loop podcast in general is on the subject of you guessed it, longevity. So some people, so uh a going along with this subject, some people treat death like a bug or a disease, something that can be cured. And you see a lot of this talk coming out of Silicon Valley as Silicon Valley is being Silicon Valley. They think they can patch it, fix the bug, whatever. So, with that said, Alex, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Thank you very much, Brent. I am delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Yeah, and we had just had a great conversation a little bit beforehand and a little pre-show thing, but I got the copy of your book. Thanks for sending that over. I love the cover. I don't know if the United States version is gonna look different. I know this is the UK one. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

It's gonna look exactly the same. I actually really want to get, like, I really want to get a necklace, like one of those really beautiful, oh, what are they called? Um like not emulsion, but you know the type of thing that are really popular right now. I want to get one of them with the eyeballs on it because I just think it's such a great design.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Is it like the cowboy things, the the things that you kind of cinch up? Like no, no, no, not no, not a cowboy tie.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Those my you know, my grandfather used to wear them. My tiny little Polish grandfather used to wear them, and it always confused me.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Then again, I grew up in the South, so you know, it all makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yeah, yeah. That's uh that's that's how it works. You just you know you just never know what things you'll pick up through uh your travels, and you're like, oh, that's cool. And you might not even know the significance of it, but you'll take it back to where you're from and you're like, hey, this is really cool. So true. Um, but thanks. I'm and I'm glad to know that the book is still gonna be orange. Orange is my favorite color. I don't know why, but uh, I have a four-year-old and his favorite color is purple right now, and so I'm just like, my favorite color is orange, and my favorite color is purple. You know, we always, you know, that that that's the extent of our arguments at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Great, keep it that way. They do become more complicated, I have to say.

Silicon Valley’s Fix-Death Mindset

SPEAKER_03 3:51

And I found a book that's completely different than what I expected. It was is a lot more human, a lot more investigative, which you know makes sense knowing your background. Um, so let's just start this off real simply. For the people who haven't read the book, which I imagine most of uh our listeners haven't, what is the Immortalists really about?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So I'm really, really interested in the longevity industry and how Silicon Valley has co-opted it. What are the motivations of our Silicon Tech Silicon Valley tech billionaires? And why are they so interested in longevity? And the reason that I'm interested in this is because I have been a technology journalist for a very long time. This is not a book of 50,000 years, I thought. 150,000 years. And I, you know, I did definitely a bit of plasmapharesis here and there. No. Those peptides, man. They're they're pass me the metformin. No, I this is, as you say, this is not a kind of like, here's my protocol, this is what I do. In fact, it's not that at all. I'm a psychologist by background, a social psychologist specifically. And I have been covering technology and society since, if you can believe it, 1999. I have seen so much. I have seen the evolution of all kinds of ways that we interact with technology. And I've always been particularly interested in the ways that the designs that have been built by the technologists kind of they're imbued with what it is that they want, right? And as I was hearing more and more about the innovations and the interests and the money that is flowing into the longevity space from Silicon Valley, I was like, well, what solutions are they building? And what are they motivated by? And what do they imagine a future is going to be that hopefully I'm imagining in their minds they can build in the same way that they've built the world today. And as we know, the world today has pluses, it also has minuses. Uh, some people who are sort of technophobes might argue that there's a lot of minuses. Um, I'm kind of in the in-betweeny bit where I'm like, yeah, there's positive and there's negative. It's neither one nor the other. But the world that we live in is a result of many of the unintended consequences of the technologies that were built. And so as somebody who has been studying unintended consequences, I've been reporting for the last 20 years for the BBC and for The Guardian on technology and society. I was like, okay, so now if we're leaving digital technology behind, what is this world that we're moving into if the solutions that they're building are longevity? And have they learned from their experiences? And are we going to end up with unintended consequences based upon their longevity designs in the future? So that's, I mean, that's a lot there, but that's kind of where I'm coming from. And that's what I was really interested in when I started investigating this story.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah, and it's a really cool, different aspect to look at it. Like I that's the one thing I really appreciated. Like, oh, this is such a different look at this because it is so kind of technical and you know, kind of like what you alluded to is like, oh, here's an app that's gonna fix all your problems, or this social media thing, or the you just need more friends online, or I mean whatever the solution is. And like I said in the beginning, it's it's much more human than that. And I really appreciated the aspect. Well, even just what you just laid out, what you just said there, but you know, like who does it really benefit, why, and you know, and and then who's getting left behind in this? Because that is the thing with I mean, even on a I think it's all wrapped in with like AI and everything, but you know, it's like there's a lot of has and has nots, or has or has been, or however you say that, but you know, like that's definitely happening, and that that gap is getting wider and and it's becoming more and more obvious. So before we dive into this whole subject deeper, as we will, what do you think is the most misunderstood thing people assume about the immortality world? Or I'm just saying immortality because that's the theme of your book, but longevity and immortality will say if it's okay with you that they're interchangeable in this conversation, would you say?

unknown 8:17

Yeah.

Longevity Versus Immortality Defined

SPEAKER_02 8:18

I think actually that's possibly well, I think that's a that's a good place to start. Um, I recognize that immortality is one thing, and that is, I do get to that place in the book. I talk about different types of immortalists, types of people who want to live forever. But longevity is its own space. And longevity, I actually have a lot more time for because longevity is often rooted in serious science, and it's less about okay, how can we upload our consciousness to Jupiter through the singularity and through the opportunities that technology offers? And yes, we can get into that a little bit later. And it's much more about how can we learn about our bodies in almost like a slower way, and how can we think more scientifically and more empirically about how to extend our lives, specifically extend our health span. And I know that you talk a lot about that here. This is the difference between I want to live to 150 and I want to be healthy and happy and be able to do all the stuff that I currently do right now in my 50-year-old body when I'm 80, right? Not even 120, but when I'm 80, because age affects us. So that was like, that was one of the big things I think that I really, that I really sort of I want to make sure that people know is that there are definitely a growing group of people who believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that technology is the thing that is going to get us to an immortal future. But then we've also got the cohort who have their own fascinating and like really some really wacky, like modern history as well as some past history that is sort of based in this fundamental desire, this almost universal human need to say, okay, that's it. We can control the future. Now, I think the other thing that really struck me and thrilled me as a psychologist, right? Because remember, this is where I'm coming from. I'm not coming from this as an entrepreneur. I'm not even really coming from this as a tech journalist, except that's kind of that's my training more recently. But as a psychologist, I'm really interested in what motivates us. And it didn't occur to me, because this book actually had a previous life. It was a podcast series for the BBC, for BBC Radio.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Oh, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, it came out in 2021. So that's really where that this is where this is, excuse me, 2023. Uh, that's really where this has come from. But my commissioning editor from that passed over um a really great, I thought, series that was called Frozen Head. Are you familiar with Frozen Head? It's a really good series. It was super fun. It was really interesting. Um, and it was basically it was about somebody, it was an Alcore subscriber who uh got married, um, had convinced his wife that she also should be, you know, she should become an Alcore subscriber, become cryogenically frozen at um end of you know physical life uh in order to be resuscitated later on. And then what happened is that she died, and unbeknownst to him, it turned out that she had actually reneged on this and she'd kind of canceled her subscription and actually wasn't interested in doing this at all. Still, he took her remains, went straight to Alcor as quickly as he could, and kind of, you know, got her into the system over there. And it was then about the legal battle between what he believed was possible and what happened to him after death, and what the family believed was possible and was available to her after death. So it was mostly about belief. It was about this idea of what happens to you after you die. And listening to that, I was like, actually, this series that I'm making and and now this book that I'm making is less about the kind of Atiya, sort of this is how I'm going to live my life. It's more about what we believe is on the other side and what we believe we can achieve in life. Um and what we believe specifically technology can do for us.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

So I'm curious like the seeds of because you've uh covered technology for a long time and and you know, longevity, immortality kind of goes hand in hand, you know, because there's technol technological solutions to this, you know, problem. What was like kind of the first thing that made you, you know, first get into that the podcast, and then obviously that that turned into your book. What what was the thing that made you decide to investigate death and longevity specifically? Was there a lot of things?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah. It's there's actually a very, very specific answer to that, but it's in two parts.

Belief, Cryonics, And Legal Friction

SPEAKER_02 13:09

And one of the parts is that it's a question I get asked a lot, which is like, how do you feel about death? I actually I have no problem with death. Um I think personally, I think the death is a natural part of life. It kind of gives me meaning. Um, but I had, and I had been fascinated by death for such a long time that back in college, I had actually studied death studies. And in my first book, I wrote about how the internet was sort of transforming our conceptions of death and and all of that sort of thing. I've been on this death train for a while. I find it super, super interesting. So I did death education, and it was fascinating because it was about the spiritual and the physiological and the psychological and the economic and the historical aspects of death as a kind of as an investigation subject. And it was all great and it was all theoretical, and I was a goth, so you know, I was all into it, man. Right. And then I had a kid, and we very quickly moved to the US. I was living in the UK at that point, and I'd been there for 20 years. We moved to the US because it would have been, it was easier. I had a small child, my family was here. My husband had always wanted to live in the U.S. He was a massive Tony Hawk fan. So we moved to Southern California, like the whole thing, right? The whole thing. And um, and we got here, and no joke, within the first two weeks that we arrived in the US, both of my parents started chemo. My mom was kind of expected. My dad, not at all. And I had lost my stepmother not long before. She had died, not long before of a of an unexpected cancer. And my dad, who I had expected would be here, is no longer here. He died very quickly. And it was very upsetting and it totally rocked my world, partly because he had died. You know, if somebody is significant to you dies. That's I think a reason why a lot of people who are in this longevity space, how they often come to it, is through a very personal experience. So many of the people that I interviewed for this book brought this up. And I was like, oh, reflecting on it, going, actually, that might be the reason for me. And so I was kind of rocked and rolled around this. And I spoke with a death doula friend of mine. Um, and she gave me, you know, she gave me some really lovely advice. We talked through it, we talked about her experiences of it. Um, not long after that, unfortunately, I started losing all of my family. My mom is still around, and I lost all of my pets, and it all happened within a very short period of time. My daughter was really young. At that point, Brexit had just happened. So my world was kind of like switched on its head because I was not, I was not a person who wanted to leave Europe and I felt like my identity. I was a mess, right? I was an absolute mess. And at that point, I was kind of casting around for ideas for my next series, my next book, stuff I was interested in. And I tripped onto a story of parabiosis. But specifically, it was Ambrosia Health. It was Jesse Carmizen and Ambrosia Health. Uh Carmizen had been um had been doing a clinical trial, it was intended to be a clinical trial, um, in which he was asking people to come and receive young plasma, preferably people who were over the age of 35 to receive young plasma. I laugh about this because I'm very far away from 35 and I think back to when I was 35 and I was like, I was so young. Anyway, he later reduced that to 30, which again, my my my mind was boggled. And I started to get really interested because around that time is when he was really advertising the services to Silicon Valley. It also ended up in an episode of Silicon Valley, the HBO series. And I was like, okay, I'm currently obsessed with death, but in a different way than I have been, academically, you know, as sort of ostentatiously as a goth, but you know, more personally, what's going on, right? And then here's this person who is trying to stave off death. And he's asking people to spend thousands for the off chance. What is this about? The only people who could truly afford this are people who live in the valley. This is where he's basing himself. I'm gonna find out more about this. And then that was the rabbit hole. Really, that's how it happened.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Wow. Uh no, I'm I I want to go re-watch Silicon Valley. Like we actually started watching it, re-watching it the other day because we've been, me and my wife have been going through all these old TV shows, like the good place and all these places where like, oh, these are so great.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Let yeah, I had no idea. I even referenced the good place in the book because I was like, oh my God, I'm actually writing about the good place. I love that series so much. It's exactly the same thing.

unknown 18:05

Yeah.

Personal Loss As A Catalyst

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Right? Yeah, it's about the philosophy of death and like how we make meaning out of it and our belief.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Uh, it's so funny. And it's like it, yeah. I mean, so yeah, we're just wrapping up season four right now. Um, but but with this, so we're looking for TV shows like that that we watched in the past. We're like, oh yeah, like these are so great. And we started watching Silicon Valley, but we're like, this is a little advanced for you know, just with all the F bombs and everything for a four-year-old to watch, because our four-year-old loves to watch TV. So we're like, okay, we'll just have to save that. But I'll have to bookmark that thought as well about like I think it's series.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

I'm trying to remember exactly which which series it is, which episode it is. I have it written down somewhere because I use it in talks, and there is actually a VC who is hooked up to his uh his transfusion associate. Um and it's a very, very funny scene. Very funny scene. But I it was the that was a thing that made me realize, and I think that there was a couple of articles that were, that were going around at that point, because there had been quite a bit of investment around then um from you know from that cohort. Um and I just started digging into it and realized that as one of my, as one of the people that I interviewed said, I've been following the valley for such a long time. And it was uh I noticed that the Birken stocks had been replaced by hoodies, right? During this sort of social media craze. And now, as she said and I've seen, lab coats have replaced the hoodies. And I just started to think, wow, there's actually an enormous amount of investment that's happening in the valley here. What's going on? Right. Is this just the kings of the world? Because frankly, there are very few queens in that space, but is this just the kings of the world having a midlife crisis and way too much money? Or is there something more fundamental going on? And I mean, I found out that yes, there is something more fundamental going on, but there is also, to be honest, a bit of an element of that midlife crisis experience.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Oh, I'm sure. I mean, I I I feel like I mean, just uh just speaking about my journey journey only, and you addressed it in the beginning. Like I I don't really aspire to live, you know, past a hundred or whatever, but I do aspire to be healthy as I can. And I think what really triggered that for me is having children, you know. Um, you know, just be like, hey, I want to be as healthy and active. I want to be mountain biking with my son, you know, when I'm 80, and you know, and he'll, you know, and thank God for e-bikes, you know, because I'll be able to keep up with them. But yeah, like I mean, that that's you know, that that that thing in there. So um, so you had the podcast before. So what did you uncover? Because obviously writing a book, you do so much research, and I'm sure you did a lot of research for your podcast. What did you uncover with the book that you really couldn't with the podcast series that you did?

Young Blood, Hype, And Access

SPEAKER_02 20:58

So I was able to get a lot deeper on the ethics. I had been very, very I well, actually, there's a bunch of there's a bunch of things. So many things. It's a much longer project, I have to say. I mean, the podcast was uh the the series was was extraordinary. It was a 10-part series, um, but it was short little chunks. It was uh 15 minutes. So it was really nice, sort of little, little tight um things, but that's not a huge amount of content, ultimately. Um we uh we looked at blood. Um I interviewed as many people in that space as I possibly could. So I spoke with Irina and Mike Comboy, I spoke with um, I spoke with Brian Johnson, um I've spoken with all kinds of folks in that space anyway. And then um I was able to, through the through the work that I've done uh as a journalist, I've interviewed Nick Bostrom several times before. And so I was able to speak with uh Nick as a you know a philosopher. A philosopher of technology and indeed of, you know, he he wrote what I like to describe as the kind of canonical, um, the ura text behind transhumanism, this idea that we can and indeed we should enhance our bodies with technology in order that we can ultimately, if we so choose, live as a as a consciousness on a server farm on Jupiter. And so I I had never actually I'd never actually interviewed him about that before. I'd interviewed him about other things, existential risks, AI, et cetera. But this was my opportunity to really speak with him about that. Um, and then we went a little bit further down that route, but I was unable to really get into the geopolitics of this space, um, really unable to focus. And indeed, when I was writing the book, I actually had to add two extra chapters to the end of the book because um, because of the proximity of uh immortalists effectively to the White House, uh what happened when Donald Trump came in. The, the, the minute that he was flanked by all of the tech folks behind him, I was like, oh my God, I now have to write more. Okay, right. This is like literally to the printing press, and like throwing words at the printing press, going, and another thing, and another thing. Um, and indeed, well, it depends upon what side of the aisle you're on, but fortunately or unfortunately, there are a lot of those predictions that I had that would um sort of play out in uh in politics um that have had to do with health and wellness and how we use our bodies and how we regulate or not regulate our bodies, those have actually come to pass um since the book came out in the UK in October. Um so I wasn't able to do much of that at the time because it predated, uh predated the the second election of Trump and uh and that influx. Um and again, also aspects of this um this disparity, right? The longevity disparity. So we we talked very, very briefly about this disparity, and this is something that I think is really important. Funnily enough, I'm actually writing about the digital divide from the 1990s and the early 2000s right now for a totally different project. And it feels very much like that has been transposed onto the longevity space. Um, we like to think of this as something that is universal. And I think indeed you wrote in September, I can almost tell you exactly when it was. It was like in September 2024, you said on Spanner, you were like, the number one thing that you have to do is you need to get personalized medicine. That's the number one thing that you really should do if you want to live a longer life is personalized medicine. That's not something that is possible for most people, nor is that something that is relevant to a huge group of people because they're not part of the data sets that go into personalized medicine treatments and knowledge. So that disparity aspects about the financial disparities, who is, you know, who is the raw materials for some of these things. I mean, that's when we start to get into some like really creepy, wild sort of fictional stuff. Right. Yeah. Indeed, stranger than fiction. So that was some of the stuff that I wasn't able to get into in the podcast. Um, that the podcast is still absolutely worth listening to because it kind of is like a delightful snack snack set taster of the things that are in the book. Yeah, yeah. It's on BBC. Yep. BBC Radio 4. It was under a sort of umbrella that's called intrigue. Um, but yeah, so I was able to really like just swim around in some of the ancient history as well of our drive towards immortality. I was able to talk more about things like alchemy and how that's related to modern day chemistry, but then also how it caused an enormous amount of death and suffering as well. Like, so there's there's a lot more sort of continuity between all of these threads in the book than uh than the than I was able to get into in the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

With all that research, did you have any shifts in your beliefs or change your mind on anything there? You're like, oh, this is interesting, or was it more of you um reinforcing like, oh man, look at this. This is like holy sh you know, like like what what was that process like? As far as like, because you you obviously went so much deeper in that. Um and then as you write it, you you you you're able to, you know, stew with your thoughts on like what you're learning.

Ethics, Power, And Policy Shifts

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Uh so I mean, I like to think that I like to think that as a journalist, my eyes are open. And as an investigator, I'm yeah, and even as a scientist, I'm like, okay, what does the data say, right? And how will I then sort of learn more? What are my conclusions after collection? So I'd like to think that I was relatively open before I started. And I was always very upfront about the fact that I am, I am um, I am critical of in that kind of academic kind of way. I'm not gonna say I'm cynical, but I'm certainly critical of a lot of the things that um that I hear in this space because some of it um, well, as background, I come from a hard science lineage, right? My parents, public health service, national institutes of health, like they're like empirical research driven. I had that kind of really pushed, not pushed, but certainly that was something that that is in my bones. And as again, as a psychologist, I feel that very deeply. Um, and so I think that that um emotion is emotion and hope, and some of these kind of um difficult to pin down, very human emotions can very much drive our desires to try a new thing or apply a new whatever, right? And so I I became a little bit I that was where I was coming from in this space um as I approached it. I would like to say that some of my cynicism kind of faded away. I got quite excited for the opportunities in um some medical science and the possibilities of what is um of of what's out there uh now that we have some extraordinary technologies, truly unbelievable technologies, that can identify potential candidates for helping us to live longer and healthier lives. But I am still of the, I'm still of the basic idea that this probably will not happen in my lifetime. It might happen in my daughter's lifetime, and I'm okay with that. That's cool. Again, you know my attitude on death. I'm like, all right, that's that's where we're at. Um, but I'm excited for those types of new medical, sort of empirically sound innovations to really transform people in the future. So I wouldn't say I had like a massive aha moment, but I definitely like I got to know all kinds of really wonderful people and chat with them and and all that sort of thing. One thing that really that did come out though, apart from the belief aspect of it, the sort of this fundamental belief in technology that it's going to save us, was the degree to which the people who are driving this innovation train, right? They're on these tracks, um, truly believe that we are as simple as Elon Musk said at Davos not that long ago. You know, if everything goes wrong, there must be some kind of clock inside that we should be able to find. So we're within minutes of finding that. I don't believe in that. And it I became even more concerned, is one way of putting it, about this kind of this fundamentalist idea that we are data. Um, our bodies are nothing but data. Um, I like to think of my philosophical and psychological mind as different from the biological brain that I have. I like to think of consciousness as something that, you know, a friend of mine who I work with at the BBC, he's an anesthesiologist and he's an expert in his field. And he's like, I still don't know what consciousness is. So the idea that sort of just throwing enough data and throwing enough AI or technology at these quote unquote problems, um, I think that that really made me realize that the hubris really is real and that that is a very concerning, that's a concerning place.

The Longevity Divide And Data Gaps

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Yeah, that's always one of my thoughts. I'm just it it it seems like it's oversimplified for such a complex you know, menagerie of systems and and consciousness is exactly you nailed it right there. I I don't think I've actually ever put that word onto it, but that's exactly what it is, right? It's your soul or whatever defines us as human beings. When I hear like Ray Kurzwiley, we're gonna just upload myself to the cloud or whatever, it's like, well, that doesn't look okay, but you know, there's something missing there, and it seems it's so oversimplified. And yeah, uh, and and I haven't hadn't heard that Musk quote, but you know, it's like, hey, it's just a clock that we just gotta find it, and you're like, okay. But yeah, it it's just it's just it's just really interesting. So let's define terms here because I think most people hear the term immortalists. Uh for me, it's like I conjure up like Greek gods or something. But you know, but but it's kind of almost like in a picture of extremes, right? Like, you know, almost like like well, like I just said, like almost like a godly term. But when you say immortalists, like who counts under this umbrella? Like I and I know we've been talking about, you know, it's the tech titans that are kind of like, you know, midlife crisis, you know, that there's those forever futurists. Uh but does it also include mainstream longevity culture too? Or is that changing? I mean, like one thing that you're saying is that it is expensive and inaccessible and the genome and and all these things that, you know, people who are more privileged like you and I, and I'm, you know, I'm assuming that, you know, we can afford the 300 bucks to go get our genome sequest, and then okay, this these are you know potential issues you might have as you age. Those costs, you know, I hope and I think are coming down, you know, something like Metformin or you know, these things are are getting cheaper and cheaper, and and it gives me hope to hear people, you know, like Brian Johnson, you know, mentioned him, you know, he's like, look, you know, yeah, I do all these million-dollar things, but really the the fundamentals here are you know sleep, you know, and and he's probably addressing more health span than like you know living to 150 here, but great fundamental principles, you know, the the sleep exercise and nutrition component of it, which I hope, you know, again, that's a luxury in itself, you know, sleep if you're working three jobs and you know, commuting 45 minutes by train, you know, I mean, obviously there's a socioeconomic impact to that as well. But what's what's your opinion on or how do you define the immortalists with you know those kind of two different groups? Um, how does it include mainstream culture or or does it, you know?

Mapping The Immortalist Tribes

SPEAKER_02 33:54

So I think that I I uh I actually ultimately talk about four types of immortality or immortalists in the book. We mentioned the kind of Krisweil, Fostrom, and um, those are the sort of transhumanists and the singulitarians. And those are the folks who believe that by hook and by crook, there will be a merging of artificial intelligence and us and our consciousness will, you know, we will be raised into something that is something on the other side. We don't really know what it is. It's like the rapture, right? And I actually talk about this uh in the book. It's like the rapture. It's this sort of like um incredible Armageddon moment, wherein on the other side everything will be bliss and delight. It will be better. Um, and then we've got those for whom um actually, you know, enhancing our bodies in order to get to that place is also part of their immortality journey. We have um Brian Johnson, um, who the way that I that that that I describe him is he's chasing longevity escape velocity, which I know I know that your listeners will be aware of, but it's this idea that as I describe it, you know, you've got escape velocity, which is a uh the the ability of or the velocity that a rocket needs to escape the gravitational pull of Earth. Well, this is like the health that one needs to escape the gravitational pull of aging. It's sort of it's basically not dying today, um, is that idea. So by using anything and everything that comes your way in order to potentially reduce your rate of aging. So that's kind of where I put Brian's camp. And the idea there is a little bit like Alcor, um, or a little bit like cryogenics, wherein you're like, well, if I don't, if I'm really, really healthy today, if I'm like reversing my age today, then by the time the thing that would have killed me arrives in my life, we'll have already figured out the solution for that thing, right? For that illness, that syndrome, that disease. Um so rather than dying and waiting to be resuscitated and you know, have your cryogenics reversed and then get treated for that thing. You're just basically staying alive for as long as possible. That's another kind of form of um of immortality or immortalism. And then I've got another group who are I I leaned really hard on a really fantastic book by a philosopher named Stephen Cave. And Stephen wrote a book that was all about immortality and how it drives civilization and how everything that we you know experience, whether it's technology or it's art or it's religion or it's politics or anything, it's it's canals, any innovation is has been sort of progressed because people wish to become immortal and they wish to sort of live longer, they wish to have that sort of thing. So there's that group of immortalists. And then finally, there are the longevity enthusiasts. I don't necessarily categorize them as immortalists, because as we've talked about here, people who are longevity enthusiasts are not necessarily looking to escape death. They're looking to live longer, healthier lives. And within this, I also include gero scientists and folks who are, and people like the Comboys, um, and anybody else who's working in this space as a scientist because they're simply trying to figure out how to rejuvenate in the Comboys case, um, or with um near Barzali to get something like metformin to everybody so that, you know, whatever benefits it offers, it can help people to live longer and healthier lives. And then the final group are the people who are basically interested in politics. And these are your sort of Peter Thiels, even your Elon Musk's. I mean, turned out he was really interested in politics. Um I didn't realize, well, I mean, I I thought that might happen, but um, but their immortality is slightly different. Their immortality is about transforming the notion of how our fundamental world is organized. Um, and that is about reaching out beyond the current systems, particularly the democratic systems, the notion of nation states, and trying to identify best practices for um identifying sovereignty in other spaces so that they can entirely control, you know, the lack of or the increase in regulation, specifically around um treatments and uh and and um procedures associated with longevity. So those those last two are a little bit combined, right? Because we have places like Prospera, right? Which is yeah, you know, we've got places like that which are outside of regulatory um remits that are also funded by Teal and Mark Andreessen and Sam Altman. Like they're funded by the tech billionaires because they're interested in figuring out ways in order to um extend lives and live uh Sol's regulation outside of the traditional regulatory system. I mean, it's really interesting what the internet, you know, that crazy internet, what it's allowed, what it's done for us. Well, one of those things is that it's allowed us to build these incredible communities. And um, you know, I spent my PhD work studying these communities and like the bonds that people feel and, you know, belonging and how that is a fundamental, truly, truly fundamental aspect of human beings. But what has happened is that when you combine it with people who are disgruntled or feel like they are outside of the traditional systems, it then allows them to go and create um and create different pathways. Now, that's brilliant if you're if you want to be part of that group. It's not great if you don't want that part of the, if you don't want that group to uh to exist. But it's not just health where that sort of thing is happening. I I did a I did an investigation into crypto um a few years ago and went down to El Salvador, where they've got um their own sort of Bitcoin beach and they've got their own sort of nation-state projects as well. But yeah, so that's that's how I see the longevity space, um the general public who is trying simply to live longer, healthier lives, where they are in this kind of spectrum of um of participants in the kind of the immortality trade.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Yeah, that's a really helpful framework spectrum that you laid out. The one thing, the curiosity, where do the blue zones fit in? Because I feel like those people aren't necessarily trying to live longer, they're just doing it by default, right? By, you know, inherently living a lifestyle. And you just touched on something real quick there that made me spark into that is that community, right? That's kind of a this big missing piece of like, oh wow, that's a lot more important than people have ever really attributed to. And when I read about blue zones or watch documentaries about it, that's always a component of it. You know, it's like, oh, I have purpose and you know, like uh I've you know, I'm living with my family or I'm walking, you know. Um, do you think that they're in that spectrum or that is that something just maybe just a little different?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

I think that it's a little bit different, partly because they are still contested as places where, you know, that because of the specific place that they live in, that is the reason for their longevity. There is arguments that there's arguments actually that uh one of the reasons for the longevity bumps in those spaces is actually because of um because they've lost birth certificates. And which, you know, uh again, like that's these are contested spaces. Um and so I think that leaning too closely on those, on those specific areas, um I didn't find it as helpful when I was writing this. What I do think though is that for enthusiasts and people who are interested in living longer lives, um, healthily, looking at what we can learn from spaces where there are these longevity bumps around. And you mentioned, you know, sleep, exercise, and nutrition. That's been around for a very, very long time, right? Don't smoke, don't eat too much saturated fat, you know, make sure you get up and move around occasionally. It's it's increasingly difficult in our Western worlds to do that. But regardless, um, that kind of, those are some of the fundamentals. And then we add to that community, we add to that sort of nature baths, we add to that, you know, the lack of loneliness. Um, and a lot of the places that experience those longevity bumps, specifically thinking here about Japan, they're they're starting to provide us data on actually what socially and interpersonally needs to be taken care of for people who are living longer and longer lifespans to continue to live healthily and happily. We all want to live like we live right now until we're, you know, until we drop dead. But the thing is, is that we do have uh, we have, you know, we are, we will, we will, we will. I'm sorry, this is this, I know not everybody believes this, but we will lose sort of the awesome, the awesome health that we have now, right? And how do we then support people who are not able to experience things like community or you know, friendship as excessively, or you know, getting up and moving around, or going outside for a nature bath? And I think that I I don't I don't want the push, the kind of the Drive towards wellness forever to create a kind of subclass of people who are not well just by the very nature of the fact that they've lived more years and have not perhaps had access to the same things that we have been able to access in their lives.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yeah. Yeah, I I always feel like Michael Poland is like kind of like a a longevity guy, but without being labeled a longevity guy, you know?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Like he's I I I I love that I love all of his books. Um so beautiful. It but yeah, but that's you know, like, you know, it's like don't eat too much, but just enjoy life and like the community, and you know, it's just like a very grounded approach to that. And I really appreciate that aspect. Uh again, it's like that's why I love talking to people like yourself, is that it just makes me think about the different aspects of it because what you brought up is a very good point, is as people get older, they won't have the access to the outdoors or the community or just the ability to communicate, you know, and just you know, for whatever ailment that might, you know, strike them every from dementia to, you know, whatever. But you know, as you lose, as those things fall away from your life, um, you know, it just makes those things that much harder moving forward.

Community, Blue Zones, And Limits

SPEAKER_02 45:19

So um and that was something that yeah, that is something that really concerned me about the future that is being envisaged by our sort of our immortalists, is that it's not even that, you know, age is something that, you know, we need to reject, but also other things like health or disability or differences in religion or any of those things. It's it's a very sort of, it feels like a very homogeneous um aspiration. And that I know is very, it's very concerning to some of my contributors. Very concerning to some of my contributors. Um and by them bringing that up, and indeed, you know, having conversations like this, it reminds me that, oh yes, we are in very privileged positions. And um, sure, we might be able to go and get our you know, longevity oil change by getting albumin, you know, pumped into our into our systems and get rid of the bad plasma. But who's actually producing that? Albumin and who absolutely has no chance in hell of ever being able to access that kind of treatment? And do they just then sort of do they just waste away? You know, it creates a different kind of underclass. Um, so what is the motivation coming back to like the original first, you know, principles of what we were talking about? What is the motivation of the people who are creating these things? Um and, you know, how can we ensure that we do end up with a society and with a with a system that helps everybody who is able, you know, it helps absolutely everybody to sort of rise up and everybody gets to be healthy and live longer and live to 120.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Yeah. Yeah, like the rising sea, you know, floats all boats type type of uh.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Which is yeah. And I don't see that right now. I don't see that. Yeah, I mean that makes me sad.

SPEAKER_03 47:18

Yeah, I I agree. It's it's it's hard to see, and especially with the advent of AI, you know, like where that's gonna even seemingly further div the divide, um, even though I try to remain very hopeful and hopefully that, you know, you know, like the the rising sea, but it it's just a hard thing. Um so to give them the benefit of the doubt, what do you think that these you know, we can talk about all those, you know, tears or or the um, you know, like they uh what are they getting right that maybe that traditional medicine is ignoring nowadays? Like because this is, you know, like throwing the baby out with bathwater. Like we don't want to do that. Well what do you think that they're getting right? You know, like obviously there's a lot of things that seemingly are being unaddressed and leaving people behind, but what what part of it do you think that they're getting right that maybe traditional medicine is ignoring currently or seemingly to ignore?

SPEAKER_02 48:18

I think, yeah, I think that is a really, really beautiful question because you're right. Like in my in my job, I spent a lot of time going, this is what's wrong. And I want to emphasize, I really want to emphasize that specifically when it comes to technology, like I am not one of those people who's like, it should all be banned, or you know, it should all be embraced. And I mentioned that before, but I want to say that here as well.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

You know, I think that there it is, I think as an that there is an opportunity here for people who are willing to go through I'm not gonna say self-experimentation because I I I I I think that that's quite dangerous for the individual.

Tech Optimism And Biological Clocks

SPEAKER_02 49:05

And I recognize you know the sovereignty of of individuality as well. But increasingly the marriage between technology companies in terms of discovery and the opportunities that are there will begin to create clinical trials, right? Will begin to create um, I wouldn't say treatments yet, but certainly like the technology there, the marriage between technology and science is going to create slowly something that will ultimately turn into treatments. And that's really exciting. Um, I'm also I've I actually got really stuck on this one area. Again, I wasn't able to talk about this in the podcast, but I got kind of stuck on this idea of this this sort of underlying biological mechanism of aging and how we define age and and what it means to define sort of like the diseases of aging, as some people like to describe it. And I got I I sort of I found that whole debate really, really compelling. Because if indeed, as Musk says, right, and as I heard some of the scientists suggest as well, there is an underlying biological mechanism of aging. I'm not gonna suggest in any way we are close to figuring it out. But it's it's like it's kind of like discovering. Um, I love Indiana Jones, right? And in and in every Indiana Jones, he discovers like a cipher, right? He discovers like a thing where he's like, aha, now we can read ancient Eritrean. You know what I mean? It's like if as more and more research is going into this idea of the biological, underlying biological mechanism of aging, it's like we're getting closer and closer and closer to a totally different pathway, a totally different track of investigation. Um, my mom is a geneticist, and so she benefited greatly from the Human Genome Project and the year of the, you know, the year of the brain. Like she benefited personally as a scientist and also as somebody who who helped to fund science in this time as well. And there was an explosion of interest and discovery that came out of that time, which, you know, we're still feeling the effects of today. Um, and I think that the closer we get to imagining and understanding the kind of that aspect um and considering the interrelatedness of the diseases of aging, as Nir Barzalay describes them, um, I think we're gonna get into a really interesting pathway for new science. And there's gonna be some really, really cool stuff that comes out of it.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

Yeah, I I just pre-ordered this resonance breathing machine to help, you know, like you've probably heard of HRV, but this is something that's like a like a breathing, and you held this pebble and it kind of breathes with you and like emits like vibr. I I don't have it yet, so I don't know exactly what it does, but it like emits I think sounds and frequencies and vibrations and warmth to kind of calm your central nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Sounds lovely.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

Yeah, it sounds awesome. And and so it it's not out yet. Um, and I and I got turned on to that. So again, like I I feel like I'm in this really cool area with working with Spanner and you know, and the my longevity clinic marketing, you know, that where I get just turned on to so many, like, whoa, that exists, or that's coming out. That's like so cool.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Um And what that does ultimately is it it taps you into your present moment, right? Yeah, you know, and then that's gonna, that's the that's what's going to affect your calmness, is because you're suddenly out of the frenetic nature. And that kind of external, that sort of external intervention. I teach a design class at NYU. And we were talking the other day about ways to sort of remind, remind our users of of that we exist, right? And notifications is a great way. It's quite annoying, I know, for the rest of us, but that's a kind of way to kind of take yourself out of yourself and just and just be there for a moment and be present. And I think that, you know, I'm all for that kind of thing because it's like if it connects us to ourselves, then that's really important. And that is something that I um I I became quite passionate about in the context of of this story, because I know that many of the technologies that have been built, particularly around the wellness space, do not consider uh the kind of the female experience. Um I'm I'm an athlete, right? Or you know, I got pregnant, or a friend of mine's child was crying. All of these things are things that will get in the way of your nutrition, your sleep, and your exercise, right? But if you're getting the data that's coming from a system that's not built for you, and you're you're sort of ruthlessly and slavishly reading that data and focusing on that rather than focusing on the experience of what it actually feels like in an immeasurable, unfortunately, kind of way. And something like that pebble, right, allows you, you to kind of be in charge of that experience rather than sort of an external system telling you how well or whatever you are. Then you're able to kind of recapture that feeling and really be present. And that's that's great. I'm all for that.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

Yeah, that you touch on a couple of really good points there. Like the lack of great longevity science for the female body. Like it's just like kills me.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Genuinely. It kills me.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

I feel like some people are starting to kind of there, there's like Kayla Barnes, who's like, you know, kind of in more of an influencer type, which, you know, I I don't know how much she brings, but Dr. Rhonda Patrick, I love, you know, with with my wife in particular, you know, a lot of conversations around our household talks about perimenopause now, is like creatine and all this stuff. And so it's really cool to hear a lot of stuff coming out about that, like acknowledging this thing that's been around probably forever. I mean, there's a lot of hype around it too, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Um I swear women have been going through peri and and menopause forever. Hate to break it to you.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

But it's just cool to hear people starting to talk about that, you know. It's like, oh hey, creatine, I think, helps with this, or like, hey, this, like, you know, incetole, or you know, I mean, whatever the just the different things are. And so that's clearly a huge need. Even like having you come on the podcast, I'm like, God, I have no women on this podcast hardly ever. And it's frankly, not because obviously it's not like I don't want women on this podcast, but it they're just hard to find out there, and for whatever reason, and maybe that's tied to that Silicon Valley thing that you're talking about, where it's like male-dominated industry, whatever. I mean, that's just you know, I don't know what to think or comment on that, but I I do acknowledge that there's such a lack of that component of the the female system and hormones and all of that. And I do see a little bit more of it coming online, which I'm really grateful for, uh, you know, more for you know the women in my life than you know, my mother and you know, wife and and friends. So, you know, there's that. And then the other thing that you talked about, you know, like when you're talking about the classes, most of the audience on this podcast and Spanner, I would put into that enthusiasts category. I mean, obviously, there's probably everyone, you know, and that's the enthusiast part, you know, where everyone's tracking the sleep, your HRV, you know, it's like, I've got an Apple Watch, I've got a whoop, you know, I have a whoop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Metrics Obsession Versus Lived Experience

SPEAKER_02 57:22

You know, you're just saying I've got, you know, I've got a personal trainer and she's got me tracking my everything, my macros. I know, know what macros are. No, genuinely, like, and and I actually I I find it um, sorry, Rachel, I find it a little oppressive. Um, because I because I know that I will lose a reference point. I will lose sight of the feeling. Um I actually talk about in the book when I when I did get pregnant. Um hooray. It was awesome, but I my numbers were no longer going up, at least not the ones that I I thought I was they were supposed to go up, right? My my running was getting slower, my heart rate was going higher. Like that, these are not things that are supposed to be happening, right? I was growing eyeballs inside my belly, right? I was busy, but in my head, I was totally like, oh my God, I'm losing health, I'm losing wellness, I'm losing, and I so I I while I still have my I still have my tracker for Rachel's sake, um, I have to, I have to kind of remind myself almost on a daily basis to step back and say these numbers do not define me. They do not define me, and they will go up and they will go down, and that's just the nature of things. But certainly, you know, I mean, this is really silly, but I had my kid, I stopped being, I stopped being a gold status member of my my flying club, and that devastated me. And now here we are almost 13 years later, and it turns out that this flying club now has paternity maternity leave. And oh, I wish they had that when I was back in the day. But it's the same kind of thing. Like we're we're making, we're getting somewhere where you can actually say if you're female or if you're male or or whatever gender you identify with. Like we're getting there, but we still don't have, we still don't have enough of that data for it to be applicable. And then also the relationship that you might end up having with these devices, or certainly like with the expectation that you have to be, can actually be quite oppressive.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

Yeah. I mean, I I've been, we have a newsletter at Spanner, and that's the one thing I I feel like that's been the recurring theme of, you know, kind of Christmas kind of started it off because I've noticed, you know, like I was drinking more and not sleeping as much, and you know, travel and you know, all the things, great things that happened during holiday. And then I'm like, at what point does this turn into an obsession, an unhealthy obsession, right? So if someone is using all this data, you know, tracking all this data, getting all their sleep numbers and HRV scores and yada yada yada, you know, how does someone know that they're using this wisely versus it letting that define them? And I guess on the back of this, like the you know, the modern longevity culture, are we actually improving health or just improving metrics, right? Because again, touching back to the beginning of our conversation, that there's this component that you can't just upload yourself to the cloud, right? That's just the numbers, and that's the digital part of it, the the eyes, uh, the the ones and zeros, or you know, where as there's something that, okay, great, I I got a 99 sleep score last night. And what I've been saying is like, you know, it's like, okay, great. I I had a 99 sleep score, but I still feel like shit, you know, like I don't want to go for a run, like my legs are sore or whatever, but yeah, my numbers say great. And then some mornings I wake up and they're like, man, you know, your HRV is in the trash. And I'm like, wait, I got eight hours of sleep. I felt great. I didn't drink last night. I had a nice light dinner. Like, yeah, what's going on here?

Women, Wellness Tech, And Bias

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

You know, so it's funny you say that actually, because you saying that reminds me of a quote that um I interviewed a a great tech writer named uh Douglas Rushkoff many years ago. And I remember he said this wonderful thing. He said, and this is this may seem off topic, but actually is really relevant in my in my brain. Um he said, remember when you are stand when you don't answer your emails or you don't answer your notifications, you're not standing up to your Blackberry. That's how long ago it was. You're not standing up to your Blackberry, you're standing up to your boss, right? And we have to remember that these notifications, we're this is not the boss of us, right? The Blackberry was an email. It was an email expecting, right? It wasn't the Blackberry expecting. Our expectations of these things are the relationships that we have with them. It's just a guide, right? It could like ping, it could just keep pinging. You can still ignore it. You can still say, you know what? This is not a precipitous failure that I haven't done my exercise today or that I have taken a few days off. It's not a precipitous failure. And I think when we become slavishly obsessed with it and everything else falls away, right? When, you know, the the clinical, the when I worked in psychiatric hospitals, people would be admitted because they were a danger to themselves or to others. I'm not suggesting that we're getting there, that all of us are getting there with these things. But we have to like start to actually think, okay, what value is this generating? And if it's generating loads of value, brilliant. Absolutely fantastic. Go, go, go, run with it. But the minute that you find yourself like, you know, having phantom pings or or whatever it is, like take a second. Almost, it's almost like, you know, we have digital detoxes nowadays because we recognize the value of like just taking a step back, just not being available for other people, right? For other things, for other people's for attention on something else. We can also have we can have a moment. We can have a moment away from this. We can do that. I it is possible. Yeah, I haven't done it yet, but right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:31

Me neither. Well, the thing I keep on telling myself is that okay, when my whoop subscription ends, like uh in June or whenever it is, I'm just gonna do a whole year sans whoop also on my watch, you know, but you know, for the most part.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

And see what you've learned. Because the thing is, is that these are these are again, like I'm I'm using probably completely inappropriate analogies here, but like if you are on excuse me, an anti-anxiety or an antidepressant type of thing, you're not intended to be on those things. Most people are not intended to be on those things long term. They're there to stop you, to break the treadmill, to interrupt your regular flow, right? And then after a while, in consultation with your providers, you're like, okay, I think I'm ready to try not using these things and see how I get on because I've had that break. I've had the ability. I see what it could be like, and let's see if I can do that. I've got different coping mechanisms. And it's the same with this. Like, see, you might it might turn out that you're like, I have learned how to get really good sleep. And I now know what it feels like, even though I don't have the metrics. I understand what it feels like. And okay, I still don't want to go for a run, but I know how good sleep. You know, so they're just they're tools, right? And we have to remember that they're tools.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

Yeah. And it's just the educational piece of it. Like I I've played around with uh the constant glucose monitors. Yes. And, you know, and and usually like they've just they are prescribed for I mean, if if as long as you don't have diabetes, you know, like w but you know, they but you use it for a month and you kind of learn, oh, okay, oatmeal spikes my blood sugar, but rice doesn't, surprisingly enough, or and you learn from that, and then you take that forward and say every line out, like, oh, did that donut just you know, like whatever? And I feel like that's so much of this. But you know, then the marketing machine is like, oh, you need the you know, you need it, you need it because it's gonna save everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

Oh, really? Silicon Valley? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna solve the problems. Listen, I don't know if you remember Sky Mall. I love Sky Mall. Sky Mall, the magazine. I you could I think the website's still there. But Sky Mall. I used to love flying specifically to go to look at Sky Mall because I don't know if you ever noticed, but the very first sentence of every single thing that you could buy is here's the hot dog maker that you didn't know you know that you needed. You know, and it's like exclamation point. Like, wow, I didn't know I needed that, you know. Okay. I don't need the zombie boy coming out of the ground in my back garden, but it's there every single time I look at Sky Mall. Here is the zombie boy garden ornament that I didn't know I needed. I'm not gonna buy it, but oh, I know exactly what it looks like, and it's I that close.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:23

Yeah, I feel like that was the best gifting that was the best gift like catalog ever, you know. But yeah, it's gone the way of like the whole earth catalog or something like that. Oh I I think I mean I don't know, like, but I mean for sure it's not in print anymore, like it's just not on at the airplanes anymore. Yeah, it's not on the airplanes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

They've saved a lot of uh they've saved a lot of airplane fuel by taking them off the airplane.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:48

So zooming out a bit, you know, we talked about cultures and chasing the fountain of youth and you know, like everything historically, like through millennia. Um, like miracle cure, you know, I mean for yeah, forever. So when you looked at these historic parallels in your research, what's new this time, if anything? Like or I mean, there's clearly a lot of the same basic old human story of like, yeah, we're you know, like there's just so many um fables and stories about, you know, the it eternal life. But what is anything new this time? Like, you know, that this kind of like round of tech-enabled longevity?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

I think what is new is the diff it's different people, but it's the same thing, right? Uh Mark Andreessen, the VC, um, when he wrote his Techno Optimists Manifesto, which was uh in end of 2023, um, he wrote, you know, AI is our philosopher's stone, right? They are the alchemists. Look at them, they are making sand think. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

And it's they are the modern day alchemists.

Tools, Detachment, And Digital Detox

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

They're Mercury or their gold or whatever it is, you know, their cinnabar, all of that is ones and zeros and the data. And what is different now is that we have supercomputers, right? But we didn't have supercomputers in the good old days of mixing cinnabar, right? But we need to take that material, that stuff, that, you know, alchemical philosopher's stone gold that they're playing around with with a pinch of salt. We can't just think that all of the data, as we've just been talking about, that all of the data that they have access to is actually going to give us the thing that they think is going to give us. So that is what's different. You know, we've moved on some, um, but the the compulsion and the hubris is the same. Um AI is amazing. It's super smart, it's really cool, right? It's really, it genuinely is really cool. And it's gonna create big data style connections. Um, it's going to, it's going to help us discover stuff. Um, but will it help us find the cure for deaths? Or will it help us perhaps identify treatments that might allow us to live longer, healthier lives and preferably cheaper?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

Yeah. And that's kind of my hope with. Yeah. I I like that's kind of my hope too. I and it and it's funny that even coming full circle now that I'm thinking about it, but but like one of the biggest hopes that I come from the I hope for with the AI thing is the cancer part, or you know, like the data sets connecting all these things, like, oh, of course, like this is the you know, like not the cut-burn, whatever that we do now currently as a society, but like really like, oh yeah, going going out and getting sunlight in your eyes, or whatever the I mean, and maybe it's much more complex than it as it most likely is, but um, you know, that's the hope that I have for the AI part of it. And this leads me to another question of like, if we strip strip away all the the AI and the lab coats and all the technology, the human need what the need to be to feel like you want a live to live a long time, like like what human need is that? Like what what is the like that the inherent thing? I mean, obviously we've touched on a lot of kind of things like you know, midlife crisis is and you know, like whatever, but what is that actually, you know, and I feel like you're uniquely um equipped to maybe answer this, you know, as a psychologist, but like what human need is this movement serving?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

I think um well actually I feel like it's more philosophy, honestly. And I and I talk about some of the philosophers who have tried to investigate this for, you know, for a very long time. And some of them say that it is because we cannot comprehend not being. We can comprehend not being conscious, but we don't really know what that is. We just comprehend it in relation to our aware conscious state, right? It's still in relation to who we are and what we have now. We can't comprehend not existing, though, because it's always in relation to existing, right? It's this sort of push and pull. And that's really scary. We have no idea what is through the veil, right? What's on the other side. We have no idea and the concept, the idea of not existing. And we know that it happens, right? Just as we know that death will probably come to us because we've seen it in other people. We've seen other people not exist. We cannot comprehend that for ourselves. And so we have the, as Cave describes it, Stephen Cave describes it, this mortality paradox, wherein we know we are mortal, we know it will happen, we cannot possibly comprehend what that means. And that's, as I say, that's scary. And I think that, you know, some people are afraid of it. Some people are like, ooh, puzzle, let's figure this out. Right. And other people are like, let's wallow in this and and you know, listen to the cure.

unknown 1:12:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:45

Um excuse me, the bridge for the win. Yeah, exactly. Um, like let's just, you know, let's figure this out. Let's let's come up with a solution, or let's write poetry about it, or or let's, you know, write, you know, let's write the very first recorded story about Gilgamesh about it. Cannot comprehend not existing. And I think that that is the that's the that's the thing that we push away. It's the not not existing that compels us to continue to try and live forever.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

What role do you think psychedelics can play in this? Like, you know, like, because it seems like a lot of people, including myself, have experimented with this, and something that often comes up is death or your acceptance of death, or hey, it's gonna be all right. It's almost like and and this probably isn't everyone's experience, but at least with mine and what I've read and talked to others, it's kind of a a soothing aspect to you know the the idea of death, um, the inevitable the inevitability of death. Um I don't remember you touching on that in the book too much, and maybe that wasn't even you know really part of your book, but what's your thoughts on the psychedelic aspect to longevity or or probably more to the point, not necessarily as a life extension, although people are obviously playing with that now, but also but but more with the human side of you know, and especially talking about ancient cultures, like I mean, there's evidence of so much of that, you know, like with um you know, like tribes in Mexico and uh mescaline and you know, like that. What what are your thoughts on that or ideas or it's a really good question.

Alchemy, AI, And Modern Hubris

SPEAKER_02 1:14:36

I didn't go into psychedelics because I think I got the answers that I was looking for when I spoke with my Death Doula friend. Um if you're describing the experience as almost like a an acceptance, um what Ilua talked about, what she and I sort of shared. And she's actually, it turned out later on, she became if you ever saw the series Um Limitless um with Chris Thingy, can't remember his his last name right now. Um she was actually in the very last episode, uh, she was she was talking with him about death and acceptance of death. Uh, so that was kind of delightful.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

I was like, oh, get you, all beautiful and gorgeous yellow dress.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Um, but what Elua and I spoke about way back in the day was that coming to terms with and acceptance of. And anybody, I spent uh I spent some time after, you know, as I was experiencing all of this loss in my life. Um, I spent some time sort of really swimming around in this space and trying to understand what that was. And so I did a a series that was called The Resilient. Um I I made it sort of off my own back, really. And it was interviews with people who had been through really difficult times, but what kind of kept them going. And so I interviewed quite a few people who had either worked in hospice or who themselves had a terminal diagnosis and were going through their next round of chemo that ultimately would not, they would not survive, and and death doulas and other death workers, all that kind of thing. And they all to a person said that because they had accepted the not being, the not existing, because they had accepted that, that gave them the calm.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:52

Oh it cut off on it the acceptance of of being calm. Sure. Hi, I'm back.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

Okay, okay. The calm, the um the acceptance. What what to each a person said was that the calm that accepting what was going to happen gave them allowed them to live their lives more fully when they were alive, and not kind of plan for the future, constantly plan for the future, or worry about what was coming up in the future, or worry about what was gonna happen after they died. They were able to just fully be like, I think okay, here we are. And it sounds a little bit like what you're describing, it is a form of that, is a form of just being like, okay, all right, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:51

Does that sound like Yeah, I I I can hear that there's a little bit of feedback. There is, hold on a second, let me why aren't you in my head?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Why aren't you in my head?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:08

Wow, you've oh, but because you've come unstuck in time? What's going on? I'm so sorry about that. It feels like or it sounds like you're you're in my yeah, you're in my um let's see, output. It's come unstuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Hold on, I'm gonna have to unplug that. And plug that back in. One, two, one, two.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:33

Still still sounds the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

There we are. That should be it. Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:41

Okay, yep. No more feedback.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:43

Do you want me to do that again?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:45

No, I can edit it. I mean, it you know, it it's a real conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

It is. And tech happens.

Meaning, Mortality, And Acceptance

SPEAKER_03 1:18:53

Yeah, tech does happen. Um, but no, I mean, I feel like that's a big part of it where that feels like a healthy, you know, way, you know, because one one of the things like and that was addressed it, but you know, if if someone's afraid of getting older, like what would you want them to hear? You know, or what advice? You know, because it is a fearful thing. Like, like I'm afraid of it, I have to accept it. And you touched on something there, you know, those people who have got their last treatment of chemotherapy, and you know, it it life is certain. And and I've had friends who've passed from cancer and also are still fortunately alive today from cancer. And I know that kind of when that inevitability hits, we're like, You're deathly sick, this is inevitable. There's a peace and quiet of acceptance of that, you know, and and one friend in particular, I remember like it was just fear, fear, fear, fear, and then all of a sudden it was just like this break, and it was like acceptance, and then he was just a different person and present and grateful for every moment uh, you know, there. So, you know, obviously there's people are gonna deal with it differently and different levels of freak out and pain and sadness and you know, and those around them, but yeah, it's so you know, it's like what would someone want to hear that is afraid of getting older, you know, and and I think you you you you touch on that a little bit there.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

Focus on the positives as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:30

It gets better. You don't have to worry about your hair. Right? You can do other things, right? Community becomes so much more important. You're not striving necessarily for, you know, constantly like your next career or whatever else, you know. You you you're I guess more at peace, right? Yeah, you've seen stuff, you're able to make the connections, you're older. Like I I had this conversation with my husband not long ago about this idea of wishing to be 18 again. I don't want to be 18 again. Oh my God. No, uh, that was chaos. Absolute chaos. I was a absolute mess. It was brilliant, it was total, absolute lampoonery. But if I could be 18 again with everything that I know now, right? I don't want to have to go through all the stuff and the ups and the downs and the highs and the lows that got me to where I am at this age. Oh, I don't want to do that again. I'm I like I like my history, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:35

That's pretty cool. And every, you know, as you move forward, you get more of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

Anybody I've spoken with who's older is like, yeah, there are downsides, and you do end up talking about your ailments all the time, right? But then you get over that and you get to start talking about different things. And you're like, oh, you know, you get to focus on other stuff. And it I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:04

Yeah. I just like it, it brings up, you know, like you're holding this dichotomy is like the healthy way to think about death, and then still the healthiest way to think about health, or like, you know, caring about your health, you know, and and and these are two kind of opposing thoughts, but you know, being able to carry them both at the same time, you know, like having a healthy respect for what's to come, and then also but being present in the moment and also taking care of what you got.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:36

That's right, not denying it and not thinking, oh, I'm just that's it. Where's the McDonald's? Give me a Big Mac, right? It's not that either. It is, because you because you end up feeling pretty crap the next day after you eat it, after you eat a Big Mac, right? It's fast, it's quick, it's good, whatever, but ooh, after a while, you're like, actually, this feels bad, right? And you I think that is exactly right, as you say. There's this sort of dichotomy, right? You're we're always, I mean, there's never a day when you're gonna be certain either, right? Isn't that the other thing that you're striving for? You're striving for certainty. You want to know how healthy you're gonna be, you want to know how long you're gonna live, you want to know when it's gonna happen. Like you want to, you actually do want to know all of these things ultimately. And you're pushing it away and pushing it away and pushing it away because we can't know. And uncertainty lourties sucks. And losing facilities sucks. Losing friends and loved ones sucks. But rather than focusing on that aspect, what what are the positives? 18-year-old me would never have ever said, let's focus on the positives. Like, nuh-uh, right? But now, that many years later, I'm like, oh, actually, that's a pretty good idea. Huh. Glad I didn't have to go through all that again in order to get to this.

unknown 1:23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:59

Yep. Adult diapers suck. And yeah, they do.

unknown 1:24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:03

They're not funny. Well, Alex, this has been an amazing conversation. Like, I've I've really enjoyed, you know, the our pre-conversation, this whole conversation. It it's been enlightening and amazing. Um I'll ask you, and we'll end on this question. What's one thing that you hope is true about the future of longevity? And maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, but this is gonna be quite a boring thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

What I hope for the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:31

No, I hope that there's gonna be more like generic treatments for longevity. I hope that the price comes down. I hope that yeah, that that water rises and the boat rises with it. I really, really, really, really hope that. Because what we saw over the last hundred years as public health has improved because of all of the social interventions, like, you know, all of public health and sanitation and and education and all these other things. Everybody's, you know, it's got better. We're living, we are living longer. We really, we really are. It's great, it's really cool, it's fantastic. I'm hoping that that is something that's accessible to everybody. That's my hope.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:13

Yeah, me too. That's an amazing way to close it. And I I do think that's coming, but when is the thing?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:23

You gotta remain uncertain. Thank you so much. This has been such a treat. I've loved this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:29

So this is your book. It gets released here in the US March 3rd, you said? March 3rd.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

Yeah, March 3rd. Get it from the website.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:37

And where do you recommend that they get the book? Is it Amazon, your website?

Calm, Presence, And End-Of-Life Wisdom

SPEAKER_02 1:25:41

Like, absolutely. Get it. You can get it on uh I would actually prefer bookshop.org if you are able, uh, which is an independent booksh bookseller, or you know, order it into your local indie bookseller. You can also get it via Amazon. They will obviously fulfill. Um, and then if you go to my website, you could just find out more about me, but I'll just direct you to the penguin, to the penguin website.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:06

Yeah, bookshop.org is my fave.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:08

Okay, bookshop.org, cool. And yeah, obviously, like independent bookstores are amazing and the way to support. Um, I mean, we've got, you know, I'm here in Tucson, Arizona, and we've got uh a couple really cool ones. And uh you've got one that's apparent that's legend.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:24

It's massive. Oh, what's it called? It's got two names something in Blackberg or something like that. It is legend, this bookstore. I'm going to make a trip to go there. Yes. Massive. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:37

Please tell me.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:38

Well, and in fact, I'm gonna be in Tucson soon. I'm gonna be in Tucson. Oh, please, I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:43

Yeah, let's let's get a coffee or pizza or something cool.

unknown 1:26:46

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:47

Now my husband is running the uh the what is it? He's running like the Sedona 300.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:54

Oh wow. I don't sound intense. It's an endurance race.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:57

He's a lunatic.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:59

But you fly into Tucson, so we'll see you there.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:02

Very cool. Yeah, awesome. And then where where can people follow your work? Is it your website?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

Go to alexkrutsky.com. There's links there to all of my past work that I've done predominantly for the BBC. Um, the current series that I do, which is called The Artificial Human, as well as the one that I did for 12 years before that, which is my favorite, it's called the Digital Human. Um and yeah, you'll find out all the stuff. You can also find out about my old book and all kinds of stuff about me there.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:30

Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I'll make sure to put all of that in the show notes. So wherever you're listening or watching this, uh, there'll be links to your website. And so everyone listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:41

Actually, just super quick, uh, you've just reminded me. Um, I'm doing I have a newsletter that I do in seasons, and this current season is some of the content and some of the extras that are from the book. So it's called Messy Humans, and I'll get I'll send you that link as well, Brent.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:56

Okay, and messyhumans.com is also a website where the or it's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

It's actually messyhumans.ghost.io. I am not on the Substack train. I'm on Ghost.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:06

Um I've never heard of ghost, but I'll check that out because that's sounds super cool. So yeah, anyone listening or watching, go grab the book. It's super cool. Um I d was there an audio book of this? Like I I like.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:21

Oh, really? Okay. Awesome. My little studio for like five days and just talk into a microphone. It was just the best thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:33

Yeah, I'll I'd I'd love to listen to it too, because I I feel like when I read a book and then when I listen to it is when I get the most out of it. Um it's always the best. So yeah, grab the book. It'll be out March 3rd uh at your favorite bookseller. Um also subscribe to our podcast, the Longevity Loop, join the Spanner newsletter, spanners S-P-A-N-N-R.com, uh, where we talk about all things longevity to all y'all enthusiasts out there. And uh we can stay ahead to what's happening in longevity. So see y'all next episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:05

That was great. Cool, a teleprompter. You've got a teleprompter? There you are. I don't even know how to say this, but um yeah, like I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:16

Goodbye. Well, what happens with Riverside, like zoom and so you've just taken another step towards a longer, healthier life. Thanks for tuning in to the Longevity Loop. All resources and a full transcript from this episode are available at our longevity hub, spanner.com. Spanner is our hub for all things longevity, from finding the best longevity doctor to work with in your area to breakthrough products and educational resources. And for the innovators, doctors, and clinicians that are tuned in right now, I do help professionals like you get more patients with cutting-edge, AI enhanced marketing, and lead capture systems at longevityclinicmarketing.com. Be sure to follow the Longevity Loop on your favorite podcast app to continue building your blueprint for 100 plus year life. So let's keep the loop going. I'll see you next time.