HBOT: The ‘Anti‑Aging’ Therapy Doctors Won’t Explain (Is It All Hype?)

We swap interviews for a candid, practical conversation on real-world longevity. From chasing four hours of recovery sleep to exploring HBOT economics, we focus on what measurably improves healthspan without hype.

• Four hours of recovery sleep as the daily scoreboard
• Intermittent fasting moving A1C from 6.3 to 5.2
• The enthusiast mindset vs blue zones and big-tech visions
• HBOT basics, pressure targets, benefits and costs
• Lease-to-own and mobile HBOT business ideas
• The hierarchy: sleep, exercise, nutrition, mental health
• Testing that matters: A1C, hormones, biological age
• Caffeine titration, alcohol breaks and sleep quality
• TeaCrine and ketones as cleaner focus tools
• Making longevity accessible through low-cost habits

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Transcript

The Recovery Sleep Breakthrough

Speaker 0:00

It's a elusive number. That's four hours of recovery sleep. You know, wearing this bootstrap for two months now, and I've gotten it like zero times until this week. In the last like seven days, it's like, man, I've got three days that are over, you know, four hours of rec and I can feel it. Like I wake up, I got more willpower. I obviously slept well. Wake up every day and look at how much recovery sleep you got. I mean, that's the ultimate, you know, daily test, right? Of me having done everything else right. It's actually all about sleep.

New Format: Friends In The Trenches

Speaker 1 0:28

This is the Longevity Loop Podcast, and I'm your host, Brent Wallace. In every episode, I bring you the leading voices in longevity, plus my own insights, put the world's best strategies directly into your hands, making elite longevity strategies accessible to everyone, regardless of your background. So let's jump into the loop starting right now. All right, so we are live. Welcome to the Longevity Loop Podcast. Uh today we're gonna do something just a little bit different, uh, less of an interview and more of a conversation between two friends. Mark, who is on the other side of the screen, who you could probably see, is a friend of mine for geez, two decades, a long time. And uh yeah, and we've always kind of talked about longevity and stuff, and so this is gonna be a conversation about longevity, kind of what we've been doing, um, you know, protocols, stacks, you know, what works, what doesn't work, news, you know, just it'll probably go all over the place and just trying it out for a new format. So it might be a monthly episode, uh, you know, as long as Mark agrees to that. And uh yeah, we'll just kind of go through there. We thought it would be beneficial for people to hear this. So anyway, Mark, welcome. Thanks. Thanks, man.

Speaker 1:50

Thanks for having me. Yeah, so be here.

Origins: Clinics, Books, And A1C Wins

Speaker 1 1:52

Yeah, so just to kind of start off, uh, you know, a lot of people know my history as far as as far as getting into longevity, probably right when I moved to Austin. Um, found a longevity doc from a bike ride I went on. And this guy was just an older guy, and he was just so fit and like, I was just like, what are you doing, man? And he's like, You gotta talk to Nicole over at a Peeron. And a Peeron, it was the longevity clinic uh I went to for years in Austin. And that's kind of my start to the longevity journey there. Um, Mark, kind of what what was your journey into longevity or kind of piqued your interest um getting into the subject?

Defining The Longevity Enthusiast

Speaker 2:35

Well, so we've been friends like 20 years now, right? And we've had kind of a longstanding kind of monthly call. Let's get on the call and kind of talk shop about our lives and whatever. And, you know, you've always been an inspiration for fitness. Doing all these bike races and stuff. I remember 15 years ago going and um sminger races and whatnot and just hearing what you're up to. And then I don't know, maybe seven years ago or so, um, you had started to to look more into the longevity stuff and um had I think you got in John Sinclair's book, um what's what's it uh lifespan? And I um Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it told me about that. And I mean, I've always been interested in fitness, but there's kind of another frame around it, and it's this longevity piece, which is really different than fitness, and it's different than um just some of the other kind of frames that get put around fitness. And when you told me about that book, we read it, and um Man has changed our life. You know, my wife Haley and I, and uh we've been super serious about it since then. I mean, we you you've been a huge inspiration for all of this. You told me about you know Brian Johnson stuff, you know, four four years ago or so, and that was just kind of hitting mainstream. And I mean, we've really taken it and run with it. Um, I was pre-diabetic. I got a lot of diabetes in my family. And as as recently as like, I don't know, six years ago or something, I mean, my you know, he hemoglobin A1C was up at sort of 6.2, 6.3, right at the top of prediabetes and at the bottom of actually diabetic. I was like, man, screw that. I'm not gonna be diabetic. I got it in my family, you know, different folks have have really struggled with that. And um, so we got really serious about intermittent fasting. And actually over the course of about eight months, I um really kind of um what do you call it, selected for or um I we didn't do a whole lot of exercise. It was an exercise which did it. Um I just did, you know, 16.8 um every day religiously for about seven months. And then at the end of that took my A1C and it was down at like, you know, 5.5. And I just took it here um a couple of weeks ago, it was 5.2, right? Just solidly down in the like normal range. And so I've seen a lot of the stuff that you and I've talked about, and the stuff that I've learned from Brian Johnson and John Sinclair and Peter Atia, and you know, all the different like leaders at this point. And I mean, we're just thrilled about it. I mean, we've you know, I've got my my goals written down right here, right? That I keep in my pocket, right?

Speaker 1 5:25

And laminated, yeah, that's right. He told me he got a laminator. That that's super cool.

Speaker 5:30

Yeah, and one of my goals this year is actually to get an HBOT tank, right? Like hyperbaric oxygen um to put in our house. So yeah, that's kind of how we got into this.

HBOT Basics, Hype, And Cost

Speaker 1 5:40

Yeah, I want to get into yeah, I want to get into talking about that. That was one of the I I I think when you're sharing that you got that for your birthday, Haley got that for your birthday, I think, like a pack of like 10 or whatever. So that's definitely something I want to revisit. And that and I think that was maybe the genesis of me even just to think it's like, man, we talk about so much cool longevity stuff, like what you're doing, what I'm doing, and it's fun to compare notes because an HBOT, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I think that's what it stands for, right? Like um, you know, those chambers that you get in, and you know, it's really Brian Johnson's been talking about a lot, but uh, you know, it it it's a really cool uh it's not new necessarily, but I feel like it's been in the news a lot. Maybe that's just because of Brian Johnson, maybe there's more manufacturers coming online. But that was really cool because that was something that I've always yeah, that's a someday, but you've talking about it, like going into centers doing it. I was like, maybe maybe it is a little bit more accessible than I thought. What I always love about your brain, Mark, is that you have like a lot of times you're like, how can I turn this into a business so I can get the benefit of it and really also get the hyperbaric oxygen therapy going because they're super expensive, right? And I'm sure we'll get into that. Um I mean, we can get just get into it right now. I guess the only thing I was gonna touch on, I guess it's escaped me, but basically, um, you know, like just talking about this podcast. Uh the thing about it is the new stuff that we're doing is just enthusiasts. And one thing, so I mentioned Alex Krotofsky was just on the podcast on the last episode before this, and she wrote the book called The Immortalists, and she's talking about you know how Silicone Valley kind of approaches it. And one framework shit that she shared was uh that was in the book that I read as well, was kind of the four different phases of um, and and I almost added a fifth phase. I don't know if she necessarily agreed with me, but basically, and I might kind of forget the phases, but basically one was just kind of like the rake curves well, like up, you know, um the singularity, you know, upload your consciousness to the cloud type of thing. And then there was, you know, kind of the peer teals and kind of like the next levels down, and kind of at the bottom of that, I shouldn't say the bottom, but you know, like one of the groups was the longevity enthusiasts. And that's the the camp that I you know solidly put myself in. I'm imagining that's what you are in, and probably the bulk of our listeners, watchers are probably in that camp as far as like cool, metformin, like let's let's experiment with some serial lamus. I've got a doctor that will prescribe me, you know, uh peptides or hormone therapy, or you know, and we've probably all got the whoops. I know you got a whoop. Um, you know, we'll probably talk about that a little bit. But yeah, it's just all about uh these things, and that was the classification of the enthusiasts, you know, trying to improve your health span necessarily, not trying to live to 200. Although I wouldn't argue if I lived to 200 healthily, but you know, for right now, I'm really concentrated on, hey, I've got a five-year-old son, I want to be mountain biking with him when I'm 70, 80 years old, you know, that kind of thing, whereas like being healthy and capable, mentally sharp, all those things that come with it as long as possible till the day that I pass. And so, um, so, and then the the fifth category that I was gonna talk about that I kind of added to that was like the people in the blue zones, because there's people who are for sure doing these longevity protocols, they might not be considered enthusiasts or even doing it on purpose. But the thing about the blue zones is these people are just living their lives and then kind of naturally living these long lives. And, you know, there's ad nauseum investigations and documentaries and books about like the blue zones and what are they doing to make it, you know, like that they're living to a hundred healthily and whatever. And uh, and so that was kind of like the fifth uh kind of category that I thought was also kind of worthy of being in a category is the people that are naturally getting to this longevity point without really like reading a book about it or you know, taking that form in or anything and just like, hey, they're active socially, they're active physically, just all the all the little things that go into that. But yeah, let's let's talk about hyperbar hyperbaric oxygen uh therapy. First tuning on to that. Was it Brian Johnson?

Building A Business Around HBOT

Wealth, Access, And Blue Zones

Speaker 10:21

Yeah, it was Brian Johnson. I mean, we um I mean the idea that you know it it's a unique therapy. I mean, I think a lot of us are looking for, you know, what's some sort of like exogenous therapy, right? I mean, we all kind of know some of the, you know, uh I I assume most of us kind of know the basics, but I mean, you know, there's really only, you know, as as far as I know, that the simple ones are like about five to seven kind of modalities that some of the people that are really leading this are. I mean, it's like exercise every day. Um, they're often eating within a narrow window. Um, they're getting perfect sleep, right? So, you know, eight hours of sleep a night going to sleep at the same time and trying to get four hours of uh recovery sleep. So it'd be like REM sleep plus deep sleep and try to get four hours. That's been a stretch for me, hard to figure out. Um there's a couple more pieces in there. I mean, there's supplementation and stuff, but then there's, I mean, two therapies that that, you know, or sort of modalities that, you know, some of them are kind of older and some of them, you know, it's kind of off-label. I mean, one is like saunas, right, which is like massively increasing like capillary, um, you know, like mileage in your body. And another is um HBOT. And HBOT, you know, I mean, Brian Johnson's saying this is basically the most efficacious treatment he's ever seen. I mean, you watch this, you know, short video where I mean, I believe in his science. I believe he's really, I mean, I believe what he's saying, right? I believe his metrics, um, you know, you never know, but um, I mean, they're pretty kind of remarkable. And I mean, he's at the top of the leaderboard of the longevity Olympics, uh, which is, you know, getting a true diagnostics test in the top 50 people that are like basically turning back the clock, or at least like not exactly turning back the clock, but slowing the pace of aging down as much as, you know, possible. And I mean, some of these people are aging, you know, in a year less than half of a year. So I mean, I think, you know, Brian is down to like, you know, 0.46 or 0.48. So I mean, literally, like, I mean, he's getting, you know, six or seven months back. I mean, when you were telling me about this years ago, uh, I mean, it was like it was like a lightning bolt. I mean, you told me you said, look, dude, um, the current science says that for every week that you live, you get two days back. And I was like, what do you mean by what do you mean? Right. And it's like, well, I mean, the treatments that are coming out, the and sort of like the longer we live into the future, the more days we'll get back per week. Now, are we gonna get back seven days per week for every seven days that we live? That's far-fetched and hard to believe. And, you know, this piece about kind of consciousness and uploading our I mean, that's not what I'm going for. Um, I mean, I see every day, I mean, I'm hooked up to all this longevity stuff with news that I read and um, you know, get your email from Spannr that comes out that you write, which is it's phenomenal, dude. I mean, it's interesting. Um, it's just a great writing and it's great content. I'm like, oh man, another Spannr email came out. You know, Brent wrote that with. And so I mean, I read them. I sit down with a cup of coffee and I'm like, read this stuff, and like, interesting, I didn't know that. The, you know, uh resting heart rate was, you know, sort of founded in 1790 or whatever it is. The HRV stuff with the horse doctor. You mean that line?

Speaker 1 13:47

Yeah.

Speaker 13:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:48

Yeah. Trip.

Sleep, Exercise, Food: The Fundamentals

Speaker 13:50

You know, the the larger piece of this for me, I mean, it's fascinating. You know, the idea of longevity is like highly confronting. I mean, it's confronting to people. You start talking about it. I mean, at least half the people you talk with, if not 75%, that aren't like totally on this track already, they're like, they get mad about it. Right? They're like, what the hell are you talking about? That's it's almost like immoral, right? The idea that I could like extend my lifespan. And I really thought about that a lot. Like, what's that about? And it's sort of like it's so confronting the idea that I myself am responsible. Like, I have that much responsibility and actually that much like self-empowerment that I could actually take my life, which has maybe got, I don't know, an 80-year, 85 year lifespan, and turn it into 115-year lifespan. That is just like a mind-bender. And it actually changes so many things about what we think about time, right? About like starting a business. I mean, you know, well, when I'm like 70, I'm gonna like want to like not be any business anymore because I'm gonna be old. Right. Well, what if I stretch that out to 90? Right, how do I think about the business decisions that I'm making and think about some kind of multi-generational, like a long, like a 50, you know, I'm 52 now. How do I think about a 50-year business career that I have left instead of like a 20-year business career or whatever? And so it's that's something that's really interesting, you know, as I've explored this, I've really kind of thought a lot about. I mean, and then I like come up with these like thought experiments, right? I mean, you and I have talked about this some, but it's like if one that I like to to to kind of you know break out on people is like, dude, if I uh were to design a protocol that it took you eight hours a day to um to implement it, uh like every day, if if from here on out you're spending what is that, you know, 56 hours a week or something doing this thing, but at the end of a year, and this would be a a health longevity protocol is what I'm talking about, but at the end of a year, you got a whole other free year. Like, would it be worth it? And people at first are kind of annoyed by the question, they're like, This is a stupid question, like why would you ask me that? But then the answer that everyone says is well, dude, of course. Right? It's like no one has said, I don't think it would be worth that, right? Everyone's, you know, I've talked to a number of people about this and presented this. They're like, well, dude, like, duh, of course. And so, I mean, it's interesting the things that you've gotten turned on to and taught me about, and the things that I've kind of tracked down now and like learned about. Um I mean, it is it's possible to HBOT maybe, you know, along those lines, I mean you can only do, you know, say an hour of HBOT a day, you know, three, three to five days a week. Um, and then you even have to take breaks. I mean, you can't actually spend eight hours a day doing it. But I mean, you know, some of these like heavy hitters, I mean, these guys are spending like four and five hours a day working on this. I mean, they wake up, they eat perfectly, they do a sauna, HBOT, they do some, you know, hardcore two-hour exercise. It's all like monitored. But then they're reporting that they got, you know, two extra months free, presumably for the rest of their life, as long as they do this. I mean, what's the value of that, right? Yeah, I mean, it's it's huge.

Speaker 1 17:24

It's well, I'm just gonna say that yeah, a lot of people are getting turned on to this. The big thing about HBot is that it's expensive, right? I mean, what do the machines start at? Like 20 grand is about the cheapest you can find. I mean, maybe that you can get the the pill type ones, but the ones that really do the the work, and you shared this with me, are those like kind of hard shell ones because the pressure, I think, in the soft shell ones don't get as high as that might what I remember from our conversation.

Speaker 17:53

Exactly. Yep.

Testing And Tracking What Matters

Speaker 1 17:54

Yeah, um, but it's cool. Like, I've been always kind of an architecture design nerd, and a lot of times my YouTube rabbit holes go down architecture, you know. I'm just like, oh, cool, let's check out these homes. You know, I've been watching this one series from I think it's Huckberry, which is a clothing company, but they want do one called the Dirt that's kind of like traveling, food, and architecture. And there's another one, I think it's by um Huckberry Homes. Maybe it's the same company, but it basically just goes with these, you know, like people are who passionate about something. And so it kind of takes like I've got a friend who actually was featured, his name is Ben Moon, and he's a this kind of famous photographer for Patagonians, whatever. So they went into his home, and then there's some other guy that was a designer that they went into his home, and some pro surfer, you know, just like really cool that these people have designed these really cool homes. And one of them, I think it was on the series, it might have been not, but there was um I don't know if you've ever heard heard of the Epic bars, those meat kind of yeah, they're not energy bars, but they're, you know, like basically meat bars that got sold to I don't know, whatever company that these people made millions of dollars. They went and bought a huge 5,000 acre ranch or something like that in Texas, and then they started this company called Force of Nature, which was elk, you know, like really awesome regenerative fed elk, beef, pork, chicken, you know, like all the meat that if you're gonna be eating meat, this is the kind of meat that you're gonna wanna eat, you know, it's the stuff that's like really actually healthy for you, high omega-3s, etc. So that I, you know, and I'll land the plane on this, but I remember, you know, like so they're walking through their house and it's just this awesome ranch house with a porch all the way around it, and it's right on this acreage that they own that has like all the buffalo and everything, right? They live right in the ranch that raises all of these meats. And the guy goes in, he's like, Yeah, here's checking my gym. And he goes in this gym that's just beautiful, you know, these big glass fold-out doors that look out onto this big prairie. And uh, you know, and he's like, Okay, here's you know, my, you know, like my squat rack and all this stuff. And he's like, and this is our crown jewel, and it's one of those hard shell H bots. And, you know, he's there and he's like, and I was like, Yeah, just everyone's turned on to it. You know, if you got the money, it's just like one of these, not quite a foundable youth, because that's like probably just uh, you know, a little bit hyperbole, but it just it's just like, yeah, these people, you know, it's like if you got the money, that's like one of these biggest bang for your bucks, and was cool. Cainlin was watching this with me too, and it was one of the things where his wife comes in, she's like, Yeah, my skin and nails and nothing, everything has been like so beautiful ever since we started like doing this therapy. So, yeah, so anyway, I just see a you know, my vision board, I always have this home gym, this ultimate home gym. And you know, if you've ever seen Brian's home gym, you know, obviously in his garage, he's got that, you know, something like that. But definitely my dream home gym has a hard chill H bot in that. Um, so tell me more about uh, you know, just staying on the theme of H bot here. You you shared an idea with me, you know, a month back or whatever, and you, you know, and you're like, hey, what are your thoughts on this? But what was that idea about like the business around HBot? Like, do you want to share that with me?

Caffeine, Alcohol, And Sleep Quality

Speaker 21:26

Well, so like you say, I mean, these the mobile tanks, or rather the hard shell tanks is key. So I mean, a lot of folks have got like a home-based um soft shell tank. Problem soft shell tanks is they're they're more like a tent and they can't get up to the right pressure. So I mean the pressure that you're talking about is like two ATA, it's basically two X atmospheric pressure, um, which would be basically like Scuba Dive even going down to like thirty three feet. If you imagine the pressure that would you'd feel um the kind of that's basically the the pressure that This needs to get up to because I mean it's just room temperature that's creating the pressure. It's not oxygen in the tank. It's just uh room air in the tank, but the tank gets pressurized, and then you have basically pure oxygen with a mass that's come directly to your inhaling. And so that that sort of um combination of like being under pressure plus taking in oxygen, it's um that's what really does the magic and basically pushes oxygen out to every part of your body. Um, you know, oxygen in the body's what really kind of heals uh different, you know, ailments and things. I mean, they've like wound recovery, fire wound recovery, people who are recovering from all kinds of things. I mean, the the tank over here that I've been to a few times, I mean, these guys have um uh what do you call, you know, like UFC fighters um come in. I mean, they're kind of famous for like working with these guys, and guys get all beat up in a match, and they need to recover to be in another match, saying in a in a month or two, and so they'll spend like every day, you know, an hour in this tank at a time. I mean, uh, you know, regarding price, I mean, the the the tanks where you sit up, it's like these are like fifty or sixty thousand dollars to buy them. The ones that are more like a pill that are kind of lay down, these are more like $25,000. However, I found a manufacturer that's got a um someone that buys these tanks and then leases them to you. And so you can lease it for like a couple of thousand dollars a month, for like $1,700, like $2,500 a month, and they'll bring it to you, you lease it for a year, and then you can send it back, or you can actually get credit for part of the payments to buy it. Well, that's simple.

Speaker 1 23:41

So it's almost like a rent own, maybe?

Practical Protocols And Daily Rhythms

Speaker 23:43

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it you get a brand new tank, I mean, it to me it's a surprisingly low cost uh for for what you get. And yeah, I mean, I talked about, you know, uh I mean I'd have to talk to the manufacturer about this, but actually, you know, putting this thing in a van and going out and um, you know, basically meeting people at their house, uh, because I mean the you know, as far as I understand, the proper sort of protocol on this is, you know, in many cases really to like do a a series of sessions, maybe like 40 sessions over the you know, course of like, you know, 60 days. Um and so, you know, kind of putting that in in basically make it into a mobile unit and show up at people's doors um and maybe having it out in the driveway. I mean you could you know, you you can't just take it in someone's house. I mean this thing weighs, you know, a thousand pounds or two thousand pounds.

Speaker 1 24:38

Yeah, you could have like a sprinter van or something and have it all kind of installed back there with like some sort of, I don't know, probably electric generator, I imagine. Uh you know, so it doesn't, you know, or maybe runs off the car. Or I guess sprinter van or whatever you could have.

Alternatives: TeaCrine, Ketones, Titration

Closing Thoughts And Next Steps

Speaker 24:52

Yeah, I mean the the the the sort of arena of longevity, I mean, it's absolutely exploding. I mean, and of course it would be, right? I mean, there's you know, trillions of dollars in this baby boomer generation. You know, we've all heard this, and you know, real estate and different elements. I mean, the baby boomers, people that were born in, you know, between 1945 and like my dad, or I think 1960, you know, the baby boomers. I mean, a huge amount of wealth is in the the US is locked up in that kind of generation. You know, they worked hard, bought their house, whatever, invested. So I mean, a you know, just massive percentage of, well, I mean, all these folks are realizing, you know, I've kind of had a lot of things that I want in life. Um, you know, I've had kids and I've had, you know, a good career and I've had, you know, a house and maybe guess investments and things. But the thing that uh eludes people is like not dying, right? Like, how do I like enjoy this and kind of stay around? You know, Brian, you know, Brian Johnson, these guys talk about, I mean, it's interesting, like existence itself is the highest value, right? Outside of it's more important than politics, it's more important than um basically everything. I mean, if like if I'm dead, then I'm not putting any influence on the world one way or the other. I mean, my political persuasion doesn't matter anymore, it's irrelevant. And so it's like the idea, I mean, it starts to border on kind of spiritual concepts, right? And hence all the controversy and the weirdness when you start talking about this, you know, people have got different moral opinions about it. But, you know, the I think that that that all things like longevity that are indeed efficacious and that can get proven with some, you know, real, you know, blind pool, you know, scientific studies and that prove to be true. I mean, there's just industries that I mean there there's massive multi-billion dollar industries that haven't even been thought of yet. Um it's not all just like an AI or something, right? I mean, there's all of that, and there's gonna be huge advances made over there, but I mean, coaching, services, um, I mean, you've heard, you know, I mean, these guys at Blueprint Brent, I mean, they just started a new program, which is coaching for longevity. It costs a million dollars a year. Yeah, I saw that. And it's like, whoa, right? So I'm gonna come along and pay you $85,000 a year just to live. I mean, I'm imagining to be completely full and probably have a wait list, right? But you start to get the sense of like what the value is of that to people. You know, yeah, I mean, I'm a serial entrepreneur, you and I have bounced, you know, dozens, I don't know, probably hundreds of like ideas of different businesses over the years and having this conversation for 15 years. And I'm not sure that that that exact con I couldn't really figure out how to find a market fit for it and if that would actually have legs. Um, but I mean, there's hundreds, thousands of potential like service offerings, business offerings that that are gonna come up and be incredibly successful around this, of have people, you know, have a longer lifespan, have them have a longer health span. You know, you've pointed out that um, you know, Peter Atia talked in his book, um, I think Outlive is that, you know, a huge piece of this that is not often kind of thought of, uh, I mean, you've brought this up again and again. It's like, dude, the mental health piece of it, um, you know, who wants to live to be 100 years old if you're like miserable, right? And that's just an interesting piece there. And so, I mean, all of the mental health stuff. I mean, myself, I've got a counseling appointment later on today, right? Because I'm trying to, you know, work on some things and ultimately be a better person, better husband, um, deal with some of my you know anger issues and shit that come up, right? So how can I myself, you know, as I'm on the best exercise routine I've ever been on, as I'm getting the best sleep that I've ever um gotten, as per, like you say, this whoop strap that you sent me, um, how can I um actually get my mental health really right, like in a better place than it's ever been before, um, so that you know, I'm uh I'm not getting older and sort of, you know, in some you know, crappy state of mind that's um, you know, instead be getting mentally uh mentally healthier every month while I'm getting physically healthier too.

Speaker 1 29:29

Yeah. I mean, uh the one thing that, you know, we're talking about the HBO, and like, yeah, these things are, you know, minimum, you know, either a monthly commitment or, you know, tens of thousands of dollars commitment. And the thing that we always talk about, it doesn't take that to, you know, the the baseline stuff, and you hear Bran Johnson talk about this a lot. It's the the sleeping, the exercise, the nutrition, and then, you know, kind of community mental health type of things. And those are the things that they're not technically free, but most people are doing these things anyway. You know, you can exercise for no cost. I mean, you can find bricks and you know, I mean, there's so many garage type gyms that you can get that from just like found stuff or stuff you might have, you know. Like we had some friends over last night, and uh I was showing them, you know, my kettlebells and maces and all that stuff, and he's like, we just use a sledgehammer at our house, you know. I'm like, yeah, that's pretty much a mace, is exactly the same thing, you know, and and he just had it. So a lot of those things are just making the choices um that you can when you're in the store, you know, it's like choosing the good food over, you know, say trashy chips or desserts and high sugar saturated fat, or meant not saturated fat, but hydrogenated oils, stuff like that. Um, but you know, it's like one thing, so the interview, the podcast that we did just last week with Alex Kutoski, who wrote The Immortalists, uh, as I was telling you, you know, she had such an interesting take on the whole longevity thing because it is such a privilege and it's such a kind of out of reach for so many people that, you know, like you look at Brian Johnson, he's you know, like sold Venmo and made, you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars. So, you know, he's a multimillionaire. So it's easy to almost get, I don't know if Jade is the right word, but you're at this point where you're like, yeah, that's easy for him to do because he's a millionaire and he's got all the resources and whatever. But on the flip side of that, it still takes work. Like he still has to dedicate himself to that, like versus like, you know, hanging out on the beach and drinking margaritas all day. You know, he still has to like get up, be disciplined, and that's kind of his whole MO, is that he's taking the decision matrix out of it. And then I've heard him talk about, you know, this is bedtime Brian, this is morning Brian, this is you know, the different roles and the different personas that he has to engage himself so he doesn't stay up late and eat junk food and watch TV. He's like, nope, this is bedtime Brian. This is we go to bed at, you know, whatever certain point it is. But then I always appreciate him also saying, it's like, look, you don't need the metformin, the serilliness, the you know, the peptides, the, you know, all the supplements fancy supplements. Sure, they can help, but that, you know, and he's not the only one that says this, but it doesn't matter how many supplements and you know, all those things, all those, you know, metformin peptides, whatever, if you're not getting the basics right, those things won't help you if you're not actually getting those foundational things, sleep, nutrition, exercise, mental health, and there's probably a couple other there that are more easily accessible. Um, you know, like sleep, you know, we we've talked about that endlessly, whereas like sleep, I enjoy getting up early because that's kind of my knee time before my son wakes up. And so having that time is super important, but also getting really good sleep is important. And so for me, you know, setting that bedtime alarm so it goes off at seven o'clock, which is sounds so crazy early. You know, we used to stay up till, you know, 10, 11 o'clock, you know, just regularly, no big deal, and then wake up, you know, six, seven the next day. But then you realize that, hey, that's actually not enough sleep. It's not quality sleep or watching a TV that has blue light, you know, so so there's all these things that you're like, okay, what are the steps that I need to take in order to get a good night's sleep? It's not just as easy as just brushing your teeth and going to bed. It's really planning for that almost a day ahead of time, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, so I need to plan my dinner, so I'm done. You know, Brian famously, you know, stops eating at like what noon or one? So he has that whole fasting period. So his intermittent fasting is stacked on the night, which, you know, and again, we've talked about that. That's very difficult to do, especially with social, and usually it's the fasting's a little bit easier to do in the morning, um, but for intermittent fasting. But then coming into that, you know, as far as like planning your sleep, it's like, okay, so I can't eat at six o'clock like I was if I'm gonna be going to bed at 7.38, because that's just not enough time to digest that food, and then you will wreck your sleep. So it's like, okay, so you have to meal plans like, okay, I have to start making dinner and eating by 4, 4:35 at the latest, so I can get into bed at 7:38, making sure that meal is a little bit lighter, making sure my biggest meal is probably lunch, you know, with my big protein and salad and that kind of intake, and then making sure my dinner is a little bit lighter, a little bit easier to digest. So usually for at least for me, it's a salad with some protein and some nuts and olive oil and something like that. But anyway, but just going back to that, you know, it's like, you know, if you're listening and watching this, you know, the one thing that me and Mark always talk about is that longevity is accessible to a certain tier of people, but we fully understand that, you know, like we're sitting here from like, you know, we're we're lucky to be in the positions that we are, that A, we we're entrepreneurs, we work for ourselves, so we can kind of readjust our schedule to like make these things fit. And while at the same time landing the plane there about the interview, the podcast that I did with Alex Kortoski, is that that's still luxury, you know. Like if you're busting your ass working three jobs, you know, on that more poverty end of the spectrum, you know, and have children and you know, like you don't have the luxury of time. You don't have the luxury to, you know, rearrange your schedule. You sometimes you don't have the luxury of even choosing good food, whether that's education, or you just don't have time to go to the store to like you're just gonna go buy the freezer, you know, raviolis or the canned spaghetti or the the frozen pizzas or the drive-thru or all those things because you just that that time thing is a luxury. So it's like getting up to that point, you know. So again, you know, longevity is uh definitely uh if if if you're able to take part of it, you're super lucky. And there's just different levels of it, right? But hopefully, you know, if anyone listening to this is under that thing, is like, you know, sleep might be the easiest thing just to start with, and it's kind of the building block of all of it. And then walking, you know, again, exercise is also a luxury of time, right? It's like I don't have time to go, you know, do whatever for 45 minutes, but you know, it's hopefully people can get creative if they don't have the luxury of time, the luxury of money, um, the luxury of space, you know, whatever those things are. Just figure out what you can fit where and optimize for that and then slowly build up from there. And then and so, you know, so anyway, that that was this so I recommend anyone, you know, listening, like go check out that episode that I did because it's just a different perspective, you know. That that the thing that I get wrapped up in my life is like, okay, I'm gonna do this and this, and then I've got this allocated over here and you know, all these things I'm doing, but I'm just in a really lucky position that you know that that I can actually do those things. And then there's that next level of like, okay, tens of thousands for an HBOT, okay, that's out of my price range. And I like how you're thinking about that, Mark. It's like, well, maybe I can do a business, or like, hey, I've done this research and I've actually found a place that rents these for, you know, starting at 1700 bucks a month, which to me, I mean, that's a ton of money a month still, probably as much or more than most people pay for rent and you know, for the for this machine, but it is an easier pill to swallow than you know, popping down fifty thousand dollars on one of these hard shell.

Speaker 37:54

Yeah, I mean, well, so you know, one of our old mentors, um, he told a really interesting story. So he, you know, back in probably 2008, 2009, maybe even 2005, he went to a talk where Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were talking. And after the talk, they were going to this after party. Um, and he was lucky enough to be able to go to this after party, right? And he was a big fan of Steve Jobs. He actually went up and and and asked Bill Gates and Steve Jobs the same question. He said Bill Gates had a very different answer to this. But I mean, I've told this story like a lot of times and thought about this quite a lot, the the answer to this. So, I mean, basically, this mentor of ours, he stood in the line to go ask Steve Jobs a question, and he finally got up there and he said, Hey, Steve, you know, you you've had all these successes, you've um, you know, you've launched the iPhone, you've lost the iPad, you you've had this incredible career. Like, what's your secret to creating so many incredible products? And he said, I looked at Steve and he he looked up to the right. I saw him think about it, wait, and then he looked back at me and he said, You know, I think you just really have to care. And he like, I'm almost getting emotional telling the story. He he said, I didn't want to, I didn't want him to say anything. He said I kind of backed up and said, Thank you, and walked away. To me, so many things about life. I mean, we talk about that a lot here in my company. You know, the the like, why do this? Why figure this out? How or how do I figure this out? And it's like, well, dude, you really just have to care. Okay. I mean, that's the biggest lever that I can move within myself. I mean, I'm not um, you know, super wealthy over here. We've got a nice business, but I mean, we don't, I mean, to even pay a couple thousand dollars for an HBOT tank would be a stretch for us. But there's so much amazing free information these days out on the web. Um, I mean, you know, you've turned me on to amazing books. Books are like the most lowest cost, highest leverage thing. I mean, John Sinclair's book, Lifespan, I mean, it costs, you know, 25 bucks or something. It's ridiculous how much I can learn from that. I mean, listen to that audiobook a couple of times. So it's like caring comes first, right? It's like, how do how do I afford this stuff? You guys are talking about some expensive stuff. Sure. And there's levels far beyond what we're talking about here. Um I mean, you know, Brian John, yeah, he's you know, uh, you know, self-made, you know, hundred millionaire, whatever he is. Um, and he has to kind of answer for that a lot. I mean, if people have asked him, well, well, it's easier for you because you're worth a billion dollars. Yeah. Um, right. I mean, you've you've seen these interviews and things where he has to kind of answer. And I mean, he gets so much heat, right? Again, controversial. Um, it's amazing that he's like so giving and like friendly about you know his information, whatever. But there's a lot of things that can be done that are relatively low cost. I mean, I think actually one of the most expensive things um that is kind of required-ish, it's it's uh it's a helpful first step to take, is actually testing, right? And you and I have talked about this a lot. It's like you know, true diagnostic tests. Uh, you've recommended some tests with Spannr. Um, and I mean these tests can be like 500 bucks, but it's a way to set a benchmark and to say, okay, this is where I'm starting, um, and to be able to see progress. And I mean, true diagnostics got a test, 150 panel, you know, simple blood test, and you get back all of these metrics of of what's, you know, where things are at, right? You got high cholesterol, you got low TRT, you've got um, you know, here's your A1C, here's all of these key, you know, sex hormones, all kinds of things. And you can just see, okay, that's where it is. And then to take that test for $500 a year later, after a bunch of work has been done, uh, you know, you can start to see, and I mean, you've been a big proponent of this, you've been getting tests and stuff with um, I mean, for a long time now. I mean, I don't know, seven, eight, ten years, you've got tests that go back that far. I don't have that data. Um, I mean, I've done a couple of these, but they're kind of sporadic and they're not kind of in unified places. I mean, you've worked with Alperion um and you know, did it like super dedicated there with a year working with these hardcore longevity doctors right in Texas to um to really figure out where you're at. I mean, you've done VO2 Max a bunch of times. I've never done that. I don't have it sucks. Yeah, that's what you said.

Speaker 1 42:42

Man, VO2 Max testing, like, I gotta get another test here pretty soon, but like, oh my God, that is straight torture. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's great information. And, you know, but anyway, sorry to train your thoughts. I had to interject that. I'm like, man, that test, that is a sucky test.

Speaker 43:02

Yeah. Well, just to say that, you know, there's all these fancy, expensive treatments. I mean, as I've started to care, and as I've started to like learn for like free on YouTube, or you know, learn stuff from you, learn, I mean, find some friends, find a, you know, group to kind of get in with the idea of longevity. This isn't like get fit, it's not run a marathon, it's not um lose weight, right? There's kind of a term for it that is kind of the umbrella that it fits under. It's just, you know, there's all kinds of overlap with all of that. But I mean, there's there's a way that we kind of describe this and to to start to care and then to learn and then start to care even more and say, dude, I'm really gonna take this on serious about this. I mean, we just here in the last few weeks, um, I mean, I've finally gotten to where we're getting to bed at time at the same time every night, go to bed at nine. Um, we don't eat for four hours, five hours before we go to bed, beginning amazing exercise. And what do you know? It seemed like this elusive number, this four hours of recovery sleep every night. Man, I've like this week that's happened three times. I mean, I've been tell, you know, wearing this, this, this whoop strap for, you know, two months now, and I've gotten it like zero times until this week. Um, in the last like seven days, it's like, man, I've got you know, three days that are over, you know, four hours of and I can feel it. Like I wake up, I got will more willpower. I obviously slept well, right? Taking care of some other habits that just keep me up at night, um, you know, using way back on the caffeine, a lot of things that you know you and I've talked about for a long, long time. Well, you know, to get up into the higher level, of course, you could, you know, I mean, there's probably no end of how much you know resource you could throw at this, and it's like nowhere near accessible for so many people. But there's yeah, I don't know, a huge percentage of this could be gotten by um caring, and then say, no, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna get exercised five or six days a week. Uh, I'm going to to really consider and like learn what intermittent fasting is, and I'm gonna go to bed at the same time every night. Right? It's it's free basically to do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 45:21

Yeah, I mean, that that's that's such a great point there. Um, you touched on something real quick there, and I was like, oh, how's that going? Uh the caffeine thing. How would so I know you've been cutting back on caffeine, which in this house is, you know, at the espresso machine and shots on tap all the time. It's kind of hard to do. Um, what we did, we did actually didn't do it this January, but both me and Kay, we um did no caffeine for all of January and we did decaf. And I think we talked about this slightly. What was your strategy to get that and what did you replace it with? I mean, obviously it sounds like it's it's paying off with better sleep. And do you know if you're a fast caffeine metabolizer or slow or do do you know and I don't even know if there's a test for that to be honest. I just think it's probably one of those things like, well, if I have a coffee past, you know, one o'clock, I won't get to bed or something like that.

Speaker 46:18

Yeah. Well, man, I I mean coffee is like like, you know, pulling out the big guns here, right? Coffee's like, don't be talking about my coffee, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 46:29

It's the next story of the gods, man.

Speaker 46:32

Yeah. You know, I mean it's it's really just a plant medicine. Haley and I've been working with plant medicine for for a long time now, and um, it turned out at the end of the day. I mean, it's just it's one more plant, you know, alkaloid that that does kind of interesting things to the human body. I mean, we I love coffee, I love the, you know, all the whole thing, the ritual, the flavor, the smell, all of it. I mean, I read an article recently that said that people actually age, they don't age continuously, they age in these kind of very fast spurts. And one of them is kind of in the mid-40s and the one is the early 60s. So like 45, 62. It's almost like in a year you could age like five or seven years or something. And part of what happens at those ages is that we um stop metabolizing caffeine and we stop metabolizing alcohol as well. And so if the body can't metabolize it, not only really understand exactly what metabolizing something means, right? But I mean, we've got a metabolic system, um, kind of processing through it. You know, we've we haven't drink alcohol in in years now. Um, that works really well for me. But um caffeine has always just been a struggle. And I mean, man, I mean, uh coming off, I mean, for me, dude, coming off of coffee, I mean, I've tried to, I've tried to quit for for months at a time, and uh and it'd be like two or three months into it, and I'm like, dude, I'm so tired. Like, what the hell? Right? It's like, well, bro, your your adrenal glands can take six. I mean, it some people don't have any effect at all. Some people it takes six, nine months to reset their adrenal glands. And when I hear this, I'm like, what the hell has happened to my adrenal glands if I'm not doing that? Right? Like, my God, it's like pulling on this rubber band like back and forth all day, every day. So we um to get off coffee, we actually bought some caffeine pills, right? And I mean, it's still a work in progress. I mean, we um have actually have taken a big long break now from I mean, I love espresso, we've got the all the espresso machines here, you know, love going out to the coffee shops, everything else. And I mean, we Haley and I were really talking about, you know, literally talking about this recently. It's just like, well, what do we do about the fact that I love going to a coffee shop and I love that atmosphere? And it's like, well, there's a number of ways to look at that. One is that, first of all, it's I feel stupid standing in a line of 15 people waiting on some, you know, coffee, right? I mean, just standing there waiting. Haley hates that. He's like, dude, why are we standing here? The other thing is, do I really does it really matter that much? Okay, I'm talking about a long arc of my life being healthy, ultimately getting help, healthy sleep. Caffeine rolls up into sleep, and um, I mean, you wake up every day and look at how much recovery sleep you got. I mean, that's the ultimate um, you know, daily test, right? Of me having done everything else right. It's actually all about sleep. I mean, these guys emphasize this a lot. You can't really game it. Um, either you slept great naturally or you didn't. It's as simple as that. And it takes some work to figure that all out. And and it starts kind of early in the day. And so, and I also come back to let's not freaking care. Okay, like I want to go out to a coffee shop. Well, then you must you must want that more than um having you know these other goals happen. And I'm not sure that I do. I mean, we're in the process right now, um, here of, you know, the last six weeks or so, like just kind of weaning yourself off of that habit, of that aroma, of that ritual, of that walking down to a coffee shop. I mean, there's amazing coffee shops, you're two blocks away. Um, and I mean, we we actually wake up and we take caffeine, and it gives me really about 60% of the satisfaction that I get from drinking coffee. I mean, I panic about it because I'm like, I'm used to getting that in this other way. But yeah, right? I mean, it's so much cleaner. And I mean, the other alkaloids that are in coffee and the other like the acidic, um, it doesn't work well for me. Okay. I know that so many people it does, and it's, you know, the whole world, I mean, no one's gonna change that. And obviously, whatever works for every, you know, individual people is is key, you know, important for them. But what it doesn't really work that well for me, and I mean it's still a work in progress, but we're trying to um kind of work that through our system and then evaluate here in a couple of months if that's something we want, you know, to have back in our system. I mean, I imagine getting off these caffeine, you know, pills here soon as well. Don't know how that's all totally figured out, but you know, we're making progress on it.

Speaker 1 51:23

Yeah, that's cool. So you've been titrating down, right? Like you started at like what, 200 megs or 50 megs or whatever, and then you've just like slowly made your dose smaller and smaller and smaller. Is that kind of your plan to kind of wean your body off of the caffeine?

Speaker 51:38

Uh yeah, basically. I mean, we're I mean, I was kind of at 200 um milligrams down, but a hundred. Yeah. So I mean with these caffeine, you know, it's like one capsule is a hundred. Um, I'm probably drinking probably 250 milligrams of caffeine a day with my, you know, two or three espresso that I'm doing, double espresso, right? So yeah, I mean it's progress. And we were just talking about this earlier, it's like, man, I just feel great when I wake up. It just it's just a whole different thing here. And the mornings are different. My meetings and business that I, you know, and employees, my relationship is different, right? I'm not flying off the handle about stuff that's not a big deal, you know.

Speaker 1 52:16

Because it is kind of an irritant, right? Like I feel like caffeine can be that irritant or whatever, but that's cool, man. That that I mean it makes me want to kind of revisit that. Um, I think overall I metabolize caffeine well. I still get pretty good sleep store scores. Usually the thing that affects me when I drink, I'm not drinking for the first quarter of this year, if not longer, kind of depending. And you also touched on something too. It takes it with drinking and with caffeine, it sounds like too. I haven't researched it, but it sounds like you have. But it takes weeks and months for your body to fully recover from that. And I remember seeing some research on the alcohol part that it takes actually five to six months to reset your actually brain chemistry. So it's not just like, okay, cool, I haven't had a drink in three days, I'm back to normal. It's like, okay, I haven't had a drink for four, five, six months and I'm back to normal, which is such like is like, okay, that takes some real commitment there, you know. And then with the coffee, um, you know, that's uh a pretty interesting thing. Mark, I I'm gonna say one one last thing. I know you've got a uh a stop you gotta take care of there. So we'll we'll just end this here. This has been super cool. I'm glad you got to join in and we'll make sure to do it again um because I feel like I need like I have this whole little bullet point list of like, hey, here's some things we can touch on. And I don't think we touched on any of them. Maybe HBOT is the only only thing, but um, but I was gonna say uh caffeine, have you looked at tea crine or any of those kind of alternative that kind of have the same effect as caffeine, but they're different? Um Tea Creene is one, and there's uh another one, but um anyway, it it it might be worth checking out as far as uh you can get those in the capsules in there in some energy drinks, but I know the powerful thing about them is that they have a shorter half-life. So with the caffeine being the half-life being, you know, six hours or whatever, um, I think tea crine or whatever actually does flush out of your system faster, but giving you the same kind of effects as caffeine. So interesting might be worth checking out. And then there's a couple, it's tea crine is the one, it's T-E-A-C-R-I-N E, I think, something like that. But anyway, you should be able to find it pretty easy. And then there's even a newer version that they just made that's something along those lines, name-wise, and it's also supposed to be that same thing where it's like um helps you kind of maintain that clarity. Uh, one thing that I've been getting into, and I don't know if we've even talked about this, but the the ketones, um, I've been buying this in bulk and just taking a shot. It's actually funny. The other day I was on a uh a call with uh the longevity clinic marketing, you know, my marketing business, and I didn't realize I was just pouring this and I just took a shot and I was like, oh shit, it probably looks like I just took a shot at alcohol or something. Hold on, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, hold on. There's those those are uh those are ketones, I promise. But anyway, that that's also I don't know if you played with that at all, but that is also something that um you know I've heard Tim Ferris talk about that for so many years. Ketones is a a pretty interesting thing as far as like the brain component thing. And I've heard many times, and maybe it's even Tim I've heard talk about not doing the coffee. Well, he's kind of more of a tea guy anyway, but that's just to say a caffeine for all purposes. But like that helping that brain simulation and kind of like recall and all those things where you don't have the stimulation, it's actually just fuel for your brain versus stimulants for your brain. So just probably worth checking out. But uh man, thanks for jumping on uh the podcast uh with me today. And uh yeah, we'll do it again soon. Um, but otherwise, uh thanks for showing up, man.

Speaker 56:09

Awesome, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 56:11

Talk to you soon. Yeah, this is the Longevity Loop Podcast.